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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Rentoc View Post
    This is my first post. So, hello to all.
    As for Mr. Snowden. I would have to say the word "traitor" comes to mind. While the NSA may have been up to some no good, there are options available to a true "whistleblower" other than running off to our two biggest "rivals/enemies" seeking refuge giving up only he knows what information. I believe he should be captured, tried and judged accordingly.
    This Hero Worship of him in my mind is not only silly, but downright scary. It worries me that so many citizens find this country so, well, disgusting? Not really sure what word to use there.
    Do you realise that as a direct result of Snowden's disclosures, there has been a national debate which did bear good fruit. Not only are Americans now aware of the NSA's abuses, lectures on the topic by law professors, articles in many of our magazines and news papers, books, discussions on morning tv shows, discussions on talk radio shows and much more, all which educated and informed the American people and brought to bear a bi-partisan bill to reform the NSA's domestic intel gathering. Most Americans value the constitution and the people's Bill of Rights, and see it as the chief apparatus that stands between them and the government. Because, as the framers noted, men are not angels. Nobody denies that Snowden broke a law, its just that so many of us think that it trumps the larger law that has been violated by the National Spy Agency. It's scary to some of us that there are Americans willing to sacrifice hard fought and won liberties for perceived security, despite the fact it was pointed out two centuries ago, would rob you of both. And welcome to DP.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. Since the claim that the FISA court ruling allowing the collection of metadata in the form of point-to-point transmission records is a violation of the 4th Amendment, it's adherents have to deal with the fact that SCOTUS already dealt with that exact same data base, and ruled that it did not fall under 4th Amendment protection. The FISA court derived its' ruling from SCOTUS direction.
    I'm sure that you'll be able to provide that ruling then won't you?
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    This doesn't really comport with reality, though.
    Really? So you can prove that those millions of people, each and every single one of them, is guilty?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Snowden releases information damaging US-European relationships when doing so makes it harder for them to respond in a coordinated manner to major moves on the part of Russia. Given that he is effectively being run at this point by Putin's administration, that is not a coincidence.

    That's just on the OSINT side. On the high-side, I'm sure that the FBS and GRU are loving the data he brought them.
    To believe that, you have to ignore that he's still in Russia because we made it impossible for him to leave. He spent a month in the Russian airport. We rescinded his passport. The U.S. went so far as to ask our allies to ground and search a plane because we thought the plane might be carrying him OUT OF RUSSIA and Putin's grasp. So if he's cooperating with Putin, and there is no evidence he is, then it's the intelligence community's fault in large part by giving him no other option to avoid what could be a lifetime in solitary confinement in a SuperMax prison. He saw what happened to Manning - he could expect worse treatment.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is incorrect. Since the claim that the FISA court ruling allowing the collection of metadata in the form of point-to-point transmission records is a violation of the 4th Amendment, it's adherents have to deal with the fact that SCOTUS already dealt with that exact same data base, and ruled that it did not fall under 4th Amendment protection. The FISA court derived its' ruling from SCOTUS direction.
    I don't think that's true, and the major point is we should be made aware when the secret court issues a secret ruling saying all our data can be vacuumed up under the legal theory that once we hand it over to a private party, our 'expectation' of privacy from then on is ZERO. My "expectation" of privacy wasn't zero. I didn't expect Google or Yahoo to hand over my emails to NSA or for Verizon to let NSA know who and when and where of all my calls.

    Now that we KNOW that, we can have a national debate about the privacy of our data. Federal laws make disclosing medical information illegal in most cases. Well, maybe we need federal laws about when it's OK to funnel all the email traffic into an NSA server in Utah. That would be nice.....

    you can call it whatever epithet you like. Announcing to Mullah Omar McJihad that we intend to watch your gmail account from now on because we know that is where you are planning your CONUS-based attacks is amazingly stupid CT practice, which is why no administration of either party no matter what their personal inclinations or backgrounds will do it.
    That's not the choice. The FISA court granted warrants for that kind of thing, same way courts have granted warrants for other surveillance for hundreds of years. The question is whether the NSA can vacuum up ALL gmail and then use all kinds of means to search through your email and mine for evidence of wrongdoing.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Really? So you can prove that those millions of people, each and every single one of them, is guilty?
    No. That's not what's required to state, correctly, that what you posted isn't true.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Trusting the FISA has prudent oversight is comical.

    How Three Decades Of Conservative Chief Justices Turned The FISA Court Into A Rubber Stamp
    from the FISC:-both-the-wheels-AND-the-grease dept
    The FISA court has been deemed a "rubber stamp" and with good reason. Not a single request was rejected over the last two years and over the last twelve years, the court has only rejected 10 out of 20,909 requests.

    FISA Court Has Rejected .03 Percent Of All Government Surveillance Requests

    Now who thinks our scandal ridden cumbersome government has gotten it right 99.7% of the time.

    FISA Court Has Approved Majority Of Surveillance Warrants : NPR

    FISA Court Has Rejected .03 Percent Of All Government Surveillance Requests | Mother Jones

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...er-stamp.shtml
    I have to agree, as much as that pains me to do.

    This problem isn't a right/left thing. It is a govt. problem. It was created by govt on both sides.

    Without Snowden we wouldn't know about abuses of the NSA and DHS, among other agencies. I think the govt is way out of control when it comes to civil liberties.

    Cassius Clay didn't believe in fighting in a war. He refused to report to the draft board. He did this and willingly went to jail and paid the price. That is sacrifice.

    Snowden did what he thought was right. I think there are more avenues he could have pursued but they would have been very dangerous. He still would have had to break the law and would have exposed himself to jail or execution. The difference between Snowden and Clay are that Clay went to jail for what he thought was right. Snowden hasn't.

    I think what Snowden did was positive over all BUT, if he ever comes back to this country he needs to go to jail for charges that apply. The govt doesn't want that anymore than Snowden does. It would be even more embarrassing to the govt than the current situation.

    To those that say he ran to Russia. He was trapped there. The govt was waiting for him in several different countries and issued warnings to all countries. That argument doesn't work.

    To those that think he should have worked through the system. The system doesn't work. He tried several avenues. He did not try enough avenues but he was in a dangerous situation. I know from personal experience that you have to be real careful when you have information that could end careers and put people in jail. One day I was getting ready to go to a going away party. The next Monday I was sitting in a room with a bunch of agents from the FBI, CID and OSI. If you make one slip up you can wind up in deep doodoo. It could end the career of the person trying to expose the corruption. They could wind up in jail. In my situation I could have lost all the time that I had worked towards my retirement and my job. I retired about 8 years later. It caused a lot of hard feelings with some of the people I worked with. It resulted in being refused any promotions for the rest of the time I was in that facility. At one point the FBI tried to implicate me in the situation. We had FBI, CID, OSI and the Dept of the Army IG up our skirts every day for two years. The whistle blower has very few resources to protect them. The agency has a ton of people ready to try to cover up the situation and smear the whistle blower. I was real careful in both situations that I was in. I had a lot of dirt about a lot of people so there were people in the agency that backed off. They didn't know what information I had or what I would do with it so I was covered. People went to jail and people got fired.

    That whistle blower law is a bunch of crap and offers hardly any protection, unless you have half a million sitting in the bank that you want to flush. Just look at the IRS situation, or the VA. Name any govt agency.

    For all you arm chair quarter backs that sit on your butt and say, "he could have done this" or , "he could have done that", you don't know squat about how govt agencies work.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No. That's not what's required to state, correctly, that what you posted isn't true.
    Actually yes, it is.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually yes, it is.
    Okay, well apparently midday intelligence professionals and most federal judges disagree. Sorry? Call in to a talk show about it?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Okay, well apparently midday intelligence professionals and most federal judges disagree. Sorry? Call in to a talk show about it?
    1: Its the "intelligence" "professionals" that this is all about. They're the ones wanting to violate our Right to Privacy. Why the hell should I listen to them?

    2: I have yet to see SCOTUS rule on this. Mind providing the case?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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