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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

  1. #111
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Because we live in the United States and we have a bill of rights, and it includes a 4th Amendment which protects our right to privacy from the likes of you searching through it unless you have a damn good reason to be doing so and get a warrant to do it. That's for starters.
    And the government duly elected in accordance with the Constitution and the judicial branch whose job it is to decide what is in accordance with that document and the laws of the land decided that it was legal. You just wish they decided and ruled otherwise. That's all. I wish a lot of laws were otherwise, too. And?

    Second, we are represented by our members of Congress and they cannot be held accountable for their decisions unless we're broadly informed of the decisions that they've made on our behalf.
    This IS NOT how intelligence operations can be undertaken if you want them to be effective.

    If the Congress, or the judiciary, decides to grant sweeping powers to the executive branch to vacuum up our personal information into government databases, we have the right to be informed about that. That you don't think so is the best example yet of why I'm glad Snowden leaked what he did, because obviously those in the intelligence community have nothing but contempt for the public and their rights to privacy.
    I feel like you really don't understand the nature of intelligence operations. I mean...you do know that they depend upon secrecy, yes?

    Verizon handed over all call data - all of it.
    All that they had...

    Between the U.S. and overseas, and calls made entirely within the U.S. All we have is the NSA's pinky promise about what they'll do with the data already in their possession, and they have a long history of lying when asked about what they're doing, so gosh, I don't know why we don't trust them when they make promises....
    That's all you ever had anyway. NSA has the technology, as does GCHQ, DSD, CSE, and GCSB, of course. So does 3DGSD/MSS, FSB, DGSE, Mossad, etc. The only thing you ever had, with regards to this, was a pinky promise, and that was only from NSA/Five Eyes. That's it! Government is always going to have a step up on technology. Forever. So what's the difference?

    Right, the public and Congress should expect the NSA head to lie to them, repeatedly, in testimony. Are you serious?
    In open settings? YES. Again, do you realize that intelligence operations need to be secret in order to be effective or not?

    I'll quit here because there is no way for us to meet on this when you're defending the CIA spying on Senators and their staff investigators, removing access to documents, lying about it repeatedly, and, incredibly, after being correctly accused of illegal activity by spying on Senate investigators, instead of admitting it and correcting the problem the CIA filed a criminal complaint against the Senate investigators! If you're willing to defend that, you'll defend anything at all.
    Am I? Or am I ignoring it as you try to conflate legal operations with illegal?

    You need to ask yourself what you think it is intelligence agencies do, why, and if you support that mission or not. If you don't, who cares what you think?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  2. #112
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't agree that disclosing arguably legal programs by definition makes a person a 'traitor.'
    There's no 'arguably' about it: you're not the arbiter of what's legal or not. Shockingly, the country has a group that does that: they decided it was legal. That's it. Period. Legal.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  3. #113
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Heh, heh, heh.

    Sorry Buddy. I shouldn't have directed that at you. I have encountered folks like that but you're not one of them.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


  4. #114
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    And the illegal, unconstitutional things he exposed? Who goes to jail for enacting and carrying out those things?
    1. The things he exposed were not illegal.

    2. However, as Redress points out, even if they were, that is an entirely separate question. Especially since the metadata collection program was only a very, very, very small portion of what Snowden has given up.

    Ok, fine, the way he went about it was wrong... does this mean what he exposed is not wrong?
    Good arguments can be made both for and against. That doesn't excuse Snowden's decisions to expose other material that puts US servicemembers' lives at risk and harms our ability to work with the Europeans to counter Putins' land-grabs in East Europe.


    For example, the way in which we collect signals intelligence on Taliban insurgents planning attacks on US patrols. We used that to save American lives. Yeah, I would say absolutely that is not wrong. But Snowden apparently wanted to data-dump, and so the Taliban changed their communications methods, and now our people aren't able to be protected. Thanks, Eddy.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Did I mention Snowden was a hero?

    I am not sure that I did mention that Edward Snowden is a hero.

    Hmmm....

    I probably did mention that Snowden is a hero.

    Well...just in case I forgot...

    Edward Snowden is a hero.



  6. #116
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I kinda suspect it is more like we both spent time in the military. We both learned that authority is not necessarily a bad thing, that rules are not oppression.
    There is indeed a heavy element of "F You, Dad!!!" in some of the libertarian reaction to Snowden.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Did I mention Snowden was a hero?

    I am not sure that I did mention that Edward Snowden is a hero.

    Hmmm....

    I probably did mention that Snowden is a hero.

    Well...just in case I forgot...

    Edward Snowden is a hero.





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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Did I mention Snowden was a not hero?

    I am not sure that I did mention that Edward Snowden is a not hero.

    Hmmm....

    I probably did mention that Snowden is a hero.

    Well...just in case I forgot...

    Edward Snowden is not a hero.



    Actually I guess that's a bit harsh. I'm sure he's a hero to some people. Just not those with an interest in American national defense. For whatever that's worth.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  9. #119
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. The things he exposed were not illegal.

    2. However, as Redress points out, even if they were, that is an entirely separate question. Especially since the metadata collection program was only a very, very, very small portion of what Snowden has given up.



    Good arguments can be made both for and against. That doesn't excuse Snowden's decisions to expose other material that puts US servicemembers' lives at risk and harms our ability to work with the Europeans to counter Putins' land-grabs in East Europe.


    For example, the way in which we collect signals intelligence on Taliban insurgents planning attacks on US patrols. We used that to save American lives. Yeah, I would say absolutely that is not wrong. But Snowden apparently wanted to data-dump, and so the Taliban changed their communications methods, and now our people aren't able to be protected. Thanks, Eddy.
    Can you quote for me the piece detailing our signals collection apparatus aimed at the Taliban? The exact piece they used to change their comms practices? I happen to know a thing or two about collection in Afghanistan and I don't remember any of that making the news.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Can you quote for me the piece detailing our signals collection apparatus aimed at the Taliban? The exact piece they used to change their comms practices? I happen to know a thing or two about collection in Afghanistan and I don't remember any of that making the news.
    Google quickly rewards
    ...But Snowden did much more than that. The documents that he gave the Washington Post’s Barton Gellman and the Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald have, so far, furnished stories about the NSA’s interception of email traffic, mobile phone calls, and radio transmissions of Taliban fighters in Pakistan’s northwest territories; about an operation to gauge the loyalties of CIA recruits in Pakistan; about NSA email intercepts to assist intelligence assessments of what’s going on inside Iran; about NSA surveillance of cellphone calls “worldwide,” an effort that (in the Post’s words) “allows it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.” In his first interview with the South China Morning Post, Snowden revealed that the NSA routinely hacks into hundreds of computers in China and Hong Kong.
    These operations have nothing to do with domestic surveillance or even spying on allies. They are not illegal, improper, or (in the context of 21st-century international politics) immoral. Exposing such operations has nothing to do with “whistle-blowing.”.....
    Snowden released a crap ton more than just the metadata program. He set our SIGINT capabilities back significantly, exposed collectors, harmed US diplomacy, degraded our ability to conduct CT operations, and enabled an autocrat.

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