You believe NSA should get all my call data and yours and the call data for every call passing through Verizon's equipment, but it makes perfect SENSE for government to tell us about that program. It's our privacy at stake, we should have a role in determining how much of it to give up in the "War on Terror" TM.
I was pointing out that the legislative oversight is inadequate, and why. If you think it's working, then argue that. Convince me that when the head of NSA testifies to Congress, all we can expect is the "least untruthful" response possible. That when Congress investigates, we should expect the CIA to spy on them, withhold, and destroy/remove access to documents they don't want Congress to see. That an intelligence community that shows contempt for the oversight role of Congress is what we should demand, and when it shows repeated contempt for Congress by repeatedly lying to them on the record, that the oversight function is working. I'm dying to hear you make that case.Yes, there are. It's called the government of the United States. You seem to be very big on the Constitution when you want to be (your interpretation of the 4th Amendment), but not so big on it when it's prescribing that the legislative branch have oversight over these operations. Are you only a fan of it when it suits your purposes?
What is it today with false choices? It's either 1) legalize the disclosure of classified information, OR 2) charge whistleblowers with crimes that carry the death penalty, and threaten to jail reporters for not giving up their sources. There are other options.Wait, are you saying that disclosing intelligence operations to the general public is against the law? Ya don't say! Or do you think it shouldn't be?
How can it be working when only a handful are read into the program, the heads of agencies lie to Congress, and when Congress does investigate, the evidence is destroyed (e.g. the torture tapes) with no consequences, and/or those being investigated spy on the Congressional investigators? That's a system working?And it is! How about that!
Oh, I see, the apologist who says he worked for NSA believes it's OK to lie to Congress and the American people. You're doing a great job making my case for me. Part of the public's problem is we suspect that your view is widespread. It's a contempt for the public and our privacy rights expressed with crystal clarity.They're certainly not going to tell the general public the truth. Why should they?
I do taxes. How about we have a secret IRS court that issues secret IRS rulings that allows IRS to get copies of all your bank records to see all your deposits, make sure you report all those deposits on your taxes, and we do that for all 150 million taxpayers, and all companies, in secret? This same court decides in secret to grant IRS complete access to your credit card statements? You OK with that?Yes, you should. What's your other option? Not have them? What is it that you think intelligence agencies do? Because you seem to be displaying a complete ignorance of them and their roles. So why oh why should someone listen to someone that is completely ignorant? More know-nothingism. That's no way to run a country. So many people seem to championing having people entirely ignorant of things run them. Why? What do you for a living? Do you think it'd be good if I came over and started calling the shots there? Why do you think you should do that with regards to intelligence operations?
And the public has a RIGHT to know what data the intelligence agencies are gathering ON THEM, and when, and in what circumstances. We don't demand the right to tell them how to do their job, but we have a 4th Amendment, and we have a representative form of government, not a dictatorship, and that requires a certain amount of openness and transparency to function, and it requires that we as a public make informed choices between safety (maximized with no privacy) and security.
I have to say you're making an excellent case as to why we can't have intelligence people deciding this stuff. The open contempt you're showing for the privacy rights of innocent Americans is pretty astounding.There ya go. Now you go worry about the things that you're an expert in and let the experts in intelligence operations and oversight worry about theirs. Appealing to the most ignorant to run things is monumentally stupid, I'm sorry.