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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    The phone company doesn't keep a recording of your phone call, but when you send an email it is stored on the server until deleted. So you have entrusted the email company with the security of the data and also lost the privacy of that data especially when you have agreed to the sharing of this data in your user agreement.
    My agreement with Google told me they'd funnel all my email into NSA servers in Utah? I guess I missed that bit of verbiage....

    It doesn't say that, and if clever lawyers drafting impenetrable agreements can get to that result without users realizing what rights they've signed away, that in no way absolves our own government from informing us when it firehoses all the email traffic into its own servers for future analysis.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    These companies are in most cases not willingly giving over the information, it mostly comes from court orders that have been handed out like candy. Companies like Google, for instance, aren't even allowed to talk about WHAT they are under direct orders from the government to hand over because the government issues gag orders.

    The argument you're essentially making is that if a third party has access to your private information, the government can use their patriot act powers to order the company to hand over access to it. That means that just about everything is up for grabs. Your home if you're renting, all of your phone calls, all of your emails, everything. Why you think that should just be perfectly legal blows my mind.
    The Verizon secret order from the secret FISA court is explicit - no one can know about the data Verizon was required to hand over. The good thing is U.S. companies are losing trust and therefore losing business worldwide. I hope their international business falls to zero. And then we'll have powerful forces on our side to reverse this nonsense.

    And don't forget about financial information - checking, investments, credit and debit card transactions, all travel, etc.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    And the illegal, unconstitutional things he exposed? Who goes to jail for enacting and carrying out those things?

    Ok, fine, the way he went about it was wrong... does this mean what he exposed is not wrong?
    Well of course no one. It's pointless with arguing this subject though with any in or near to government and particularly intel, if you know what I mean. Worrying about Snowden 'possibly' having got someone killed, when the same thing could be argued about Scooter Libby's outing of Valerie Plame, but of course Bush pardoned him, and I'm sure these same guys had no trouble with that!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    ...Scooter Libby's outing of Valerie Plame, but of course Bush pardoned him, and I'm sure these same guys had no trouble with that!
    Bush commuted Libby's sentence. He did not pardon him. Libby's conviction stands.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    I think it's odd that the Snowden apologists talk about how he is being found guilty without trial and yet they claim he exposed illegal and unconstitutional things and yet those things have not yet been fully determined in a court of law.
    Right, that's why as a direct result of Snowden's disclosures, we have the AFA, a bi-partisan bill to do a comprehensive reformation of the NSA's domestic intel gathering.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Bush commuted Libby's sentence. He did not pardon him. Libby's conviction stands.
    True enough, but he didn't go to jail for a treasonous act, is my point.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Oh, well, now that I know the secret court issuing secret orders has approved of something, then that settles it. It's legal and obviously we shouldn't question those secret orders we can't know about! Glad you cleared that up.
    Yeah, secret. It's involving intelligence operations. Do you think intelligence operations should be transparent? I'm sorry, this is just the most nonsensical of arguments.

    Besides, there are obviously solid mechanisms to ensure the NSA et al are complying with the secret orders of the secret court.
    Yes, there are. It's called the government of the United States. You seem to be very big on the Constitution when you want to be (your interpretation of the 4th Amendment), but not so big on it when it's prescribing that the legislative branch have oversight over these operations. Are you only a fan of it when it suits your purposes?

    Whistleblowers that go to the press are prosecuted and charged under the espionage act, which carries the death penalty. Manning was held in punitive solitary confinement for months, against the advice of physicians, and cut off from the world. The press that reports on their leaks are threatened with jail if they don't reveal their sources, which has, as intended, put a screeching halt on that type of reporting as journalists can no longer promise to protect sources because to do so means jail time. Reporters have had their phones tapped. Whistle blowers who tried to address things internally have hit brick walls at step one of the process, which is why several went public. So these ways of checking the spy agencies should work great, because all anyone has to lose if they come forward with wrongdoing is a life term in prison! And journalists just risk jail if they report on the leaks!
    Wait, are you saying that disclosing intelligence operations to the general public is against the law? Ya don't say! Or do you think it shouldn't be?

    Congressional oversight should also be effective.
    And it is! How about that!

    Why, at least a half dozen can be read into the most secret programs. And of course they can't reveal anything of what they know - they can't even tell their fellow members of Congress. And when called to testify, we can be sure that the heads of the agencies will tell us the "least untruthful" answer possible! So, they'll lie as little as possible! I know that makes me feel better.
    They're certainly not going to tell the general public the truth. Why should they?

    And when properly vetted members of Congress and their staffs with appropriate security clearances do investigate the spy agencies, the agencies will spy on them, removing documents that are inconvenient, causing Congress to print the document, and carry it out in secret, and store in a damn safe to make sure they can have continued access to it. Which is a good thing because the document was disappeared from the electronic records. So the agencies have shown contempt for Congress and their oversight role, which means we should trust that Congress can effectively oversee these agencies.
    Yes, you should. What's your other option? Not have them? What is it that you think intelligence agencies do? Because you seem to be displaying a complete ignorance of them and their roles. So why oh why should someone listen to someone that is completely ignorant? More know-nothingism. That's no way to run a country. So many people seem to championing having people entirely ignorant of things run them. Why? What do you for a living? Do you think it'd be good if I came over and started calling the shots there? Why do you think you should do that with regards to intelligence operations?

    In short, there is no worries I can see.
    Well, you can't see much of anything from your vantage point so it's moot.

    It's legal, the secret court issues secret orders telling us so, and all the oversight mechanisms appear to be working fine.
    There ya go. Now you go worry about the things that you're an expert in and let the experts in intelligence operations and oversight worry about theirs. Appealing to the most ignorant to run things is monumentally stupid, I'm sorry.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The NSA was/still is breaking the law.
    Which is a seperate issue and one I agree needs to be addressed. That does not change the fact that Snowden broke the law.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Which is a seperate issue and one I agree needs to be addressed. That does not change the fact that Snowden broke the law.
    He did, but the much bigger crime has been committed by the NSA. Therefore, if Snowden does time, so do those responsible at the NSA. Of course we know that will never happen. Therefore I'm not interested in a one sided justice.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I'm curious, is there absolutely no crime you think would warrant whistleblowing? No matter what 100% loyalty to the government and no exceptions? If they're killing kids in dark rooms, nope, keep your mouth shut?

    It's important to make the distinction between "No one should ever whistleblow for any reason" and "I simply don't think his reason was good enough", so which is it for you?
    1: Whistleblowing can be done by ways other than what he did. The system for whistleblowing does need to be improved, as does oversite for classified programs and the legality of those programs. But, going to the press, and using classified information to negotiate with, and continuing to threaten more releases, that is the wrong way.

    2: I have not claimed either of the two extremes you present.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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