• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama, With Reluctance, Returns to Action in Iraq

It seems you're new to this controversy.

Not at all and your lack of a response to any of my points is proof enough that you're completely uninformed on the matter as per usual when you're trying to pretend you're an independent.

The Bush administration fully expected troops to remain in Iraq, after further negotiations,

Is this one of those times when you go against all factual evidence of the contrary and keep arguing? Grant, the Bush administration was the one that signed the withdrawal order from Iraq and set a timeline. I just posted that in the previous post. The Bush administration set the terms and conditions for withdrawal with ratification from the Iraqis themselves. Are you serious dude? You're looking uninformed.

Sequence of events:

2008, Bush administration signs agreement with Iraqis:

U.S.

The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008.

In it Bush administration sets withdrawal dates for combat forces and then any remaining personnel:

It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.[1]

Conditions are also set for the withdrawal:

The pact required criminal charges for holding prisoners over 24 hours, and required a warrant for searches of homes and buildings that were not related to combat.[1] U.S. contractors working for U.S. forces would have been subject to Iraqi criminal law, while contractors working for the State Department and other U.S. agencies would retain their immunity. If U.S. forces committed still undecided "major premeditated felonies" while off-duty and off-base, they would have been subjected to an undecided procedures laid out by a joint U.S.-Iraq committee if the U.S. certified the forces were off-duty.[2][3][1][4]

The agreement expired at midnight on December 31, 2011, even though the United States completed its final withdrawal of troops from Iraq on December 16, 2011. The symbolic ceremony in Baghdad officially "cased" (retired) the flag of U.S. forces in Iraq, according to army tradition.[5]

You're being dishonest, Grant. The fact that you're replying with little nonsensical 4 sentence posts is enough proof. However, I implore you to double down on how uninformed you are. How did Barack Hussein Obama, POTUS, changed the withdrawal plan set forth by the Bush administration. If you can't show us, then you have to admit that he not only follow the Republican plan, he followed up with the plan agreed on by the previous administration, the GOP, our national defense community, the Iraqis and our allies. Want to double down?
 
Last edited:
It seems you're new to this controversy.

The Bush administration fully expected troops to remain in Iraq, after further negotiations, but Barrack Obama wanted all troops withdrawn.

Of course he is now backing down from that position, claiming that it was the fault of the Iraqis.

Why anyone would try to defend this serial liar defies all logic.

This is exactly it. Can you EVER remember a president losing a war and allowing innocent children to be beheaded, and then trying to blame it on his predecessor? Has this ever freaking happened before?
 
This is exactly it. Can you EVER remember a president losing a war and allowing innocent children to be beheaded, and then trying to blame it on his predecessor? Has this ever freaking happened before?

Not in any democracy that I know of. Perhaps in the Third World.
 
This is exactly it. Can you EVER remember a president losing a war and allowing innocent children to be beheaded, and then trying to blame it on his predecessor? Has this ever freaking happened before?

You're being dishonest again. You're now claiming Obama lost a war for continuing with the withdrawal plan set forth by the previous administration. Why is it you avoid me when you're losing an argument? You did it in that thread with the Nazis and then you disappeared from the thread. Are you afraid of me? I don't bite.
 
Not at all and your lack of a response to any of my points is proof enough that you're completely uninformed on the matter as per usual when you're trying to pretend you're an independent.



Is this one of those times when you go against all factual evidence of the contrary and keep arguing? Grant, the Bush administration was the one that signed the withdrawal order from Iraq and set a timeline. I just posted that in the previous post. The Bush administration set the terms and conditions for withdrawal with ratification from the Iraqis themselves. Are you serious dude? You're looking uninformed.

Sequence of events:

2008, Bush administration signs agreement with Iraqis:

U.S.



In it Bush administration sets withdrawal dates for combat forces and then any remaining personnel:



Conditions are also set for the withdrawal:



You're being dishonest, Grant. The fact that you're replying with little nonsensical 4 sentence posts is enough proof. However, I implore you to double down on how uninformed you are. How did Barack Hussein Obama, POTUS, changed the withdrawal plan set forth by the Bush administration. If you can't show us, then you have to admit that he not only follow the Republican plan, he followed up with the plan agreed on by the previous administration, the GOP, our national defense community, the Iraqis and our allies. Want to double down?

Here is all you need to know. Please note that the Bush Administration expected troops to remain and that the agreement called for further negotiations.

The head of the CIA said that as many as 70,000 troops would remain in Iraq.

If you read it all the way down to the bottom the truth will emerge. This has been debated throughout the thread and it's not to interesting to go through it all again. It's also late.

Obama wanted complete withdrawal of troops and in the debate with Romney he emphasized this, which came as a shock to Romney because what is happening today was forecast. All gains made were lost.

I am sorry to be abrupt but it is late here. Nite!

U.S.
 
Here is all you need to know. Please note that the Bush Administration expected troops to remain and that the agreement called for further negotiations.

LMAO you're trying to have it both ways now. What the administration expected is irrelevant. What goes into agreements is what is relevant. The administration signed a withdrawal date. Regardless of what it expected, what remains is what is signed into the agreement. You're being dishonest again, honey. I'm not falling for it.

The head of the CIA said that as many as 70,000 troops would remain in Iraq.

Irrelevant, the agreement signed explicitly stated that all forces would be removed by December 31st, 2008. The Obama administration complied.

If you read it all the way down to the bottom the truth will emerge. This has been debated throughout the thread and it's not to interesting to go through it all again. It's also late.

Yawn. Excuses, excuses is all I hear from Grant when he's trying to bull**** his way out of the argument he dug for himself.

Obama wanted complete withdrawal of troops and in the debate with Romney he emphasized this, which came as a shock to Romney because what is happening today was forecast. All gains made were lost.

Irrelevant, the Obama administration did not sign the agreement for withdrawal. It complied with the foreign policy agreement of the previous administration.

I am sorry to be abrupt but it is late here. Nite!

U.S.

Run off, I didn't expect you to actually put up anything relevant.
 
Here is all you need to know. Please note that the Bush Administration expected troops to remain and that the agreement called for further negotiations.

The head of the CIA said that as many as 70,000 troops would remain in Iraq.

If you read it all the way down to the bottom the truth will emerge. This has been debated throughout the thread and it's not to interesting to go through it all again. It's also late.

Obama wanted complete withdrawal of troops and in the debate with Romney he emphasized this, which came as a shock to Romney because what is happening today was forecast. All gains made were lost.

I am sorry to be abrupt but it is late here. Nite!

U.S.

The lefts problem is that these facts are well known and they look horrible-because they are.
 
LMAO you're trying to have it both ways now. What the administration expected is irrelevant. What goes into agreements is what is relevant. The administration signed a withdrawal date. Regardless of what it expected, what remains is what is signed into the agreement. You're being dishonest again, honey. I'm not falling for it.
And in that agreement they signed was that further negotiations would be held. Everyone seems to know that but you. You haven't even read the link with the information all prepared for you. I can't prevent you from having your beliefs so it's best you maintain them if they mean that much to you.
Irrelevant, the agreement signed explicitly stated that all forces would be removed by December 31st, 2008. The Obama administration complied.
That was to be negotiated further. It says so in the agreement.
 
They should be well known, but apparently not to the 'deniers'.

They have never seen this.

Obama Flashback: 'We're Leaving Behind a Sovereign, Stable and Self-Reliant Iraq'

Watch Joe Biden Call Iraq "One of the Great Achievements of This Administration" | The Daily Caller

Obama Now Claims It Wasn't His Decision to Leave Iraq

It never seems to dawn on these people that if the Bush administration initiated the withdrawal agreement, why are Obama and Biden taking the credit?
 
They have never seen this.

Obama Flashback: 'We're Leaving Behind a Sovereign, Stable and Self-Reliant Iraq'

Watch Joe Biden Call Iraq "One of the Great Achievements of This Administration" | The Daily Caller

Obama Now Claims It Wasn't His Decision to Leave Iraq

It never seems to dawn on these people that if the Bush administration initiated the withdrawal agreement, why are Obama and Biden taking the credit?

How many years did Obama claim airstrikes/military intervention simply created more terrorists? If this is true, why is he doing EXACTLY THAT now?

Because he's a chump with an inept foreign policy designed solely for politics.
 
How many years did Obama claim airstrikes/military intervention simply created more terrorists? If this is true, why is he doing EXACTLY THAT now?

Because he's a chump with an inept foreign policy designed solely for politics.

The problem, as has been the case for the last few decades, has been not to win a war but to send 'a signal' and insist on a departure date. Nowhere in the history of was has it been the intention to send signals. The purpose is to win.

Obama is now sending in bombers but there is no rallying cry about 'winning', defeating Islamic terror, or anything of the sort. Helping those Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike for humanitarian reasons is a good thing, but indiscriminate bombing without a strategy is only a minor aggravation for the zealots who care little for the value of human life.

I watched an interview where a US Senator (D) said that the problem could be solved with greater inclusiveness in the Iraqi government. It's hard to believe this stupidity still exists today. It's like straightening the sheets on your bed while the Titanic is going down.
 
And in that agreement they signed was that further negotiations would be held.

Nonsense. Show us that in the terms and conditions or quit bull****ting your way out of your massive lie. Here is the text:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/122074.pdf

The word negotiations is used just ONCE in the entire text in regards to plea negotiations for US soldiers in court proceedings in Iraq. There isn't a single condition for this agreement to be dependent on further negotiations. This agreement was signed on as is. It's really sad to see you be reduced to this. All you had to do was show us what part of the agreement was dependent on "further negotiations" and you completely failed at it.

The facts don't change any of that though because are the points of the agreement:

Recognizing the performance and increasing capacity of the Iraqi Security
Forces, the assumption of full security responsibility by those Forces, and
based upon the strong relationship between the Parties, an agreement on the
following has been reached:

1. All the United States Forces shall withdraw from all Iraqi territory no
later than December 31, 2011.

2. All United States combat forces shall withdraw from Iraqi cities,
villages, and localities no later than the time at which Iraqi Security Forces
assume full responsibility for security in an Iraqi province, provided that
such withdrawal is completed no later than June 30, 2009.

3. United States combat forces withdrawn pursuant to paragraph 2 above
shall be stationed in the agreed facilities and areas outside cities, villages,
and localities to be designated by the JMOCC before the date established in
paragraph 2 above.

4. The United States recognizes the sovereign right of the Government of
Iraq to request the departure of the United States Forces from Iraq at any
time The Government of Iraq recognizes the sovereign right of the United
States to withdraw the United States Forces from Iraq at any time.

5. The Parties agree to establish mechanisms and arrangements to reduce
the number of the United States Forces during the periods of time that have
been determined, and they shall agree on the locations where the United
States Forces will be present.
 
Last edited:
The problem, as has been the case for the last few decades, has been not to win a war but to send 'a signal' and insist on a departure date. Nowhere in the history of was has it been the intention to send signals. The purpose is to win.

Obama is now sending in bombers but there is no rallying cry about 'winning', defeating Islamic terror, or anything of the sort. Helping those Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike for humanitarian reasons is a good thing, but indiscriminate bombing without a strategy is only a minor aggravation for the zealots who care little for the value of human life.

I watched an interview where a US Senator (D) said that the problem could be solved with greater inclusiveness in the Iraqi government. It's hard to believe this stupidity still exists today. It's like straightening the sheets on your bed while the Titanic is going down.

Indeed, in fact we find a unique situation in northern Iraq-ALL vehicles are presumed hostile and subject to military response. We COULD absolutely rain down death and despair on these islamist thugs, stopping any capability for offensive operations by ISIS forcing them into cities/towns until they can be killed by the Kurds or Iraqi military. We could do this with safety for our military, and allow OUR allies to win-Obama "struck" 4 technical vehicles up to now that I know of.

None of this will happen-because of our weak and inept leader. Our chump in chief thinks he can convince people like fighting like a bitch-in the ME strength is respected, people who dont fight balls to the wall or who who compromise are seen as weak.
 
Obama's policy in regards to Iraq was indistinguishable from what the previous administration was doing. As a matter of fact, the condition for us staying was immunity for our soldiers from backwards Iraqi laws. The Iraqis didn't give it to us, so we gave them a middle finger. In the meantime, you have ISI which isn't a precursor of any sort as you previously stated. It's the same damn organization operating in two countries instead of one. It's the non-existent difference between Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. What are they doing? Well, they've been alive and kicking since 2006. They see the Republican administration's exit-plan and well, it's just a blessing for them when Obama decides to follow up with it in 2008. Actually, in retrospect, I bet the Iraqis are wishing they had given us that immunity. It would have probably worked better for them in the long run. We would have stayed and they would have been better protected.

However, hindsight is 20/20 and really, the only people we can put at fault now are those who point fingers without being informed, like yourself. This is the second time I have to school you on a matter you literally know nothing about and just want to chant little slogans about. It's becoming a pattern and one I'll have fun interrupting from now. You've already been proven to be uninformed on so many of these little nuances that I doubt you'll do more than complain that I'm bringing up too many facts and then run off to another thread.

I think the weirdest pattern I see is the fact that you cheerlead for all that is right wing without necessarily being informed about what it is you're cheering for. That's not a good combination because you can end up looking like you're ranting against Obama for doing what a Republican administration wanted.
Some anonymous U.S. officials and specialists who follow the war have argued they believe that parts of the agreement may be circumvented and that other parts may be open to interpretation, including: the parts giving Iraqi legal jurisdiction over United States soldiers who commit crimes off base and off duty, the part requiring for US troops to obtain Iraqi permission for all military operations, and the part banning the United States from staging attacks on other countries from Iraq.[38] For example, administration officials have argued that Iraqi prosecution of U.S. soldiers could take three years, by which time the U.S. will have withdrawn from Iraq under the terms of the agreement. In the interim, U.S. troops will remain under the jurisdiction of America's Uniform Code of Military Justice. Michael E. O'Hanlon, of the Brookings Institution research group, said there are "these areas that are not as clear cut as the Iraqis would like to think."[16]

U.S. President George W. Bush hailed the passing of the agreement between the two countries. "The Security Agreement addresses our presence, activities, and withdrawal from Iraq", Bush said. He continued that "two years ago, this day seemed unlikely - but the success of the surge and the courage of the Iraqi people set the conditions for these two agreements to be negotiated and approved by the Iraqi parliament".[39]

Army planners have privately acknowledged they are examining projections that could see the number of Americans hovering between 30,000 and 50,000, but maybe as high as 70,000, for a substantial time beyond 2011. Pentagon planners say those currently counted as combat troops could be "re-missioned" and that their efforts could be redefined as training and support for the Iraqis.[40] Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen has also said "three years is a long time. Conditions could change in that period of time".[41]

In a letter to U.S. military personnel about new rules of engagement, Gen. Ray Odierno said that U.S. forces would reduce their visibility but that this does not mean "any reduction in our fundamental ability to protect ourselves". Odierno wrote that U.S. forces would coordinate "operations with the approval of the GoI (Government of Iraq), and we will conduct all operations by, with, and through the Iraqi Security Forces...Despite some adjustments to the way we conduct operations, the agreement simply reinforces transitions that are already underway, and I want to emphasize that our overarching principles remain the same", he further wrote.[42]

General Raymond Odierno said that some U.S. forces would remain at local security stations as training and mentoring teams past the June 2009 deadline specified in the status of forces agreement. In contrast, Robert Gates estimated U.S. troops will be "out of cities and populated areas" by June 30. "That's the point at which we will have turned over all 18 provinces to provincial Iraqi control", he predicted.[43] A spokesman for Odierno, Lt. Col. James Hutton, reiterated that the soldiers staying in cities would not be combat forces but rather "enablers," who would provide services such as medical care, air-traffic control and helicopter support that the Iraqis cannot perform themselves.[44] Odierno's comments sparked outrage among some Iraqi lawmakers who say the United States is paving the way for breaching the interim agreement.[45]

When asked by Charlie Rose in a PBS interview how big the American “residual” force would be in Iraq after 2011, Secretary of Defense Gates replied that although the mission would change, “my guess is that you’re looking at perhaps several tens of thousands of American troops”.[15]

This also highlights other issues. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/15/iraq-withdrawal-us-troops_n_1012661.html

Why, if George Bush signed the agreement to leave Iraq (And further negotiations were expected) did Barrack Obama and Joe Biden take credit for it?
 
Indeed, in fact we find a unique situation in northern Iraq-ALL vehicles are presumed hostile and subject to military response. We COULD absolutely rain down death and despair on these islamist thugs, stopping any capability for offensive operations by ISIS forcing them into cities/towns until they can be killed by the Kurds or Iraqi military. We could do this with safety for our military, and allow OUR allies to win-Obama "struck" 4 technical vehicles up to now that I know of.

None of this will happen-because of our weak and inept leader. Our chump in chief thinks he can convince people like fighting like a bitch-in the ME strength is respected, people who dont fight balls to the wall or who who compromise are seen as weak.

This generation should be relieved that Barrack Obama wasn't at the helm when WWII began.
 
This also highlights other issues. Iraq Withdrawal: U.S. Abandoning Plans To Keep Troops In Country

Why, if George Bush signed the agreement to leave Iraq (And further negotiations were expected) did Barrack Obama and Joe Biden take credit for it?

You're disproving your own statements with your posts:

U.S. President George W. Bush hailed the passing of the agreement between the two countries. "The Security Agreement addresses our presence, activities, and withdrawal from Iraq", Bush said. He continued that "two years ago, this day seemed unlikely - but the success of the surge and the courage of the Iraqi people set the conditions for these two agreements to be negotiated and approved by the Iraqi parliament".[39]

Grant, what was the timeline set by the Bush administration for complete withdrawal? ;) Quit ducking and dodging and answer the questions. If the Bush administration made the agreement dependent on further negotiations, where is that stated in the agreement itself? You made up that lie and then never came back to back it up.
 
is that an acknowledgment of FDR's leadership during world war 2?

Lmao, Grant decided to attack one Democrat and praise another. He's not sure what he's doing anymore. It's almost as bad as when US Conservative attacked Obama for following the Bush Administration's withdrawal plan.
 
Lmao, Grant decided to attack one Democrat and praise another. He's not sure what he's doing anymore. It's almost as bad as when US Conservative attacked Obama for following the Bush Administration's withdrawal plan.

it's like they both forgot one of the reasons why the democratic party chose to elect Obama over Hillary clinton back in 2008 was their respective positions on the iraq war.
 
it's like they both forgot one of the reasons why the democratic party chose to elect Obama over Hillary clinton back in 2008 was their respective positions on the iraq war.

Yep, they're not too well informed on the matter so how do you blame them? Grant actually has argued for the past 3 pages that further negotiations were an important part of the withdrawal agreement. The funny thing about that is that of the 5 points agreed on by all parties, NONE has anything to do with negotiations of any sort. When asked to back up his opinion, Grant just started posting walls of text without any sort of relevance and US Conservative, the guy who attacked Obama for following Republican foreign policy, liked it. You can't make this kind of ignorance up.
 
You're disproving your own statements with your posts: Grant, what was the timeline set by the Bush administration for complete withdrawal? ;) Quit ducking and dodging and answer the questions. If the Bush administration made the agreement dependent on further negotiations, where is that stated in the agreement itself? You made up that lie and then never came back to back it up.


On November 16th, Iraq's Cabinet approved the agreement, which cited the end of 2009 for the pull out of US troops from Iraqi cities. On November 27th, the Iraqi Parliament ratified SOFA, establishing that Coalition combat forces will withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30th, 2009, and will be completely out of Iraq by December 31st, 2011, but allowing for further negotiation if the Iraqi Prime Minister believes Iraq is not stable enough. The pact forbids holding prisoners without criminal charges, and limits searches of homes and buildings. Coalition forces are subject to Iraqi law if they commit major and premeditated crimes while off-duty and off-base. A referendum of Iraqis will be held in mid-2009 on the pact, which may require Coalition forces to leave by the middle of 2010. Parliament also passed another U.S.-Iraqi bilateral pact called the Strategic Framework Agreement, aimed at ensuring minority Sunni interests and constitutional rights.
https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/12/07/18553914.php

Perhaps you can explain why Biden and Obama took credit for leaving Iraq, calling it their "greatest accomplishment" and "stable".
 
Lmao, Grant decided to attack one Democrat and praise another. He's not sure what he's doing anymore. It's almost as bad as when US Conservative attacked Obama for following the Bush Administration's withdrawal plan.

Why can't Democrats, or Republicans, be praised?
 
Back
Top Bottom