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Thread: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

  1. #171
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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    Establishment of religion does not mean writing of a law saying that the 10 commandments is the official commandments of the city of Elsewhere...

    By the city's OK-ing the monument to be placed in the public square is the city giving tacit acceptance and favor to the monument...ergo the 10 commandments...ergo religion.
    So what? As long as no laws are made or judges rule based on religious ideologies then there is nothing wrong with it.

    And fyi...just to save you some time....I don't follow any religious organization so trying to use that isn't going to get you far.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    A gift? Donation? Deco? For the hell of it?
    it has ot pass the Wlaz tesrt to be allowed... (the Walz test = secular purpose and effect test )

    you'd be hard pressed to win the argument that the 10 commandmants would pass the Walz test....it's not a very secualr list of do's and don'ts

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    so you are of the opinion the the goverbnment should have dominon over religion ?

    so much for the free exercise clause..
    Not at all. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But would be interested to discuss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    McCulloch v. Maryland, 1819, "the power to tax involves the power to destroy" Chief Justice John Marshal.
    So... you are drawing you conclusion that the ability to tax is the ability to destroy from a singuar USSC opinion from 1819?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    from our inception until 1970, no cases were brought forthchallengeing tax exempt status of churches.... in 1970, tax exemptions were found to be consitutional (Walz v. Tax Comm'n)
    this case contains the walz test

    the law allowing for the taxation of non-religious commerce/property was upheld in Differderfer v. Central Baptist Church.
    okay not sure what you are trying to prove here.... can you clarify? Or at least explain what this was in reference to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    if churches engage in nonp0religious commerce, they can be taxed on that profit... otherwise, they hold a non-profit status and are accordingly tax exempt. (see Walz v Tax Comm'n)

    there is no "freeloading"... a tax exemption is not a subsidy, no matter how many time some lefty inaccurately argues as much.
    subsidies for churches are unconstitutional... tax exemptions are not.
    Are you defending televangelists and mega-churches? Are you willing to go on record that they are primarily in the business of doing "God's work"

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Swit View Post
    Not at all. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But would be interested to discuss it.
    taxing religious activites is having dominion over that religion.

    So... you are drawing you conclusion that the ability to tax is the ability to destroy from a singuar USSC opinion from 1819?
    uhh.. yeah.. it's a pretty famous "saying" from a supreme court justice... and it's true.
    what happend when you get behoind on your taxes?.. tax liens, property siezures, etc.... these are examples of the whole "destroy " thing


    okay not sure what you are trying to prove here.... can you clarify? Or at least explain what this was in reference to?
    you asked for something to back up my position... supreme court cases do pretty well in that capacity.
    churches being tax exempt has been understood since our inception as a polity.... it's only very recently that the left wing has decided to
    attack religion, abnd te separation of church and state, by arguing the govt should be controlling them via taxation....

    Are you defending televangelists and mega-churches? Are you willing to go on record that they are primarily in the business of doing "God's work"
    insofar as the governemmnt is concerned.. yes.. i'm defending them.
    are they doing my idea of "god's work"? .. no, they aren't.
    but neither me nor the govt are arbiters of "god's work".. and we especially don't want govt acting in that capacity, either through legislation or taxation.. it would be unconstitutional.


    anyways.. i'm out.. i'm tired and the whiskey is having an effect on my typin'...nite

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    taxing religious activites is having dominion over that religion.
    Are you really trying to say that the government, through taxation, can prevent you from believing in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    uhh.. yeah.. it's a pretty famous "saying" from a supreme court justice... and it's true.
    what happend when you get behoind on your taxes?.. tax liens, property siezures, etc.... these are examples of the whole "destroy " thing
    I have been behind in my taxes, the government charged me a hefty fee for being behind, I think the fee they charged was onerous and generally unfair. But I am still here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    you asked for something to back up my position... supreme court cases do pretty well in that capacity.
    churches being tax exempt has been understood since our inception as a polity.... it's only very recently that the left wing has decided to
    attack religion, abnd te separation of church and state, by arguing the govt should be controlling them via taxation....
    Not sure that is true, but I dont see how any of this relates to the (once again perhaps only in my opinion) mega-churches and televangelists who definitely seem to be businesses. Hell, I figured religious people would be pissed at this as well. But I guess I was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    insofar as the governemmnt is concerned.. yes.. i'm defending them.
    are they doing my idea of "god's work"? .. no, they aren't.
    but neither me nor the govt are arbiters of "god's work".. and we especially don't want govt acting in that capacity, either through legislation or taxation.. it would be unconstitutional..
    Then don't defend them... if it's a problem provide for the solution not the continuation of the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    anyways.. i'm out.. i'm tired and the whiskey is having an effect on my typin'...nite
    Yeah mee too.

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by fedup View Post
    Would you feel the same way if it were a satanist monument or a monument displaying verses from the Quaran? I'll bet you that the same fundamentalists fighting to keep the Ten Commandments up would be fighting tear it down if it were displaying something from any religion but Christianity.
    Pele was born of the female spirit Haumea, or Hina, who, like all other important Hawai'i gods and goddesses, descended from the supreme beings, Papa, or Earth Mother, and Wakea, Sky Father. Pele was among the first voyagers to sail to Hawai'i, pursued, legends say, by her angry older sister, Na-maka-o-kaha'i because Pele had seduced her husband. Pele landed first on Kaua'i, but every time she thrust her o'o (digging stick) into the earth to dig a pit for her home, Na-maka-o-kaha'i, goddess of water and the sea, would flood the pits. Pele moved down the chain of islands in order of their geological formation, eventually landing on the Big Island's Mauna Loa, which is considered the tallest mountain on earth when measured from its base at the bottom of the ocean.
    The above quote was basically a story told by a National Park Ranger, a federal employee, to tourists in Hawaii. And in numerous National Parks, there are signs quoting Chief Seattle or someone with something like "The Earth is Our Mother and We must Honor Our Mother".

    Of course, this stuff is religious nonsense (The earth clearly is not my mother) for most of us and non-believers like myself simply disregard it or enjoy the story. Not sure why so many people get so upset over the 10 Commandments but don't mind this other nonsense. I was raised as a Unitarian which has as a symbol the flaming chalice so that any flame, such as the Olympic torch, some emotional, religious strings for me but for others it is just a stupid thing burning.

    But why do so many get so upset over silly things that provide comfort to others at no cost or pain to themselves? BTW, the 10 Commandments is more of a Jewish thing and there have been conflicts between Christians and Jews. Not sure how that establishes a religion.
    Last edited by Eric7216; 08-09-14 at 02:34 AM.

  7. #177
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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Stealing, murdering, and committing perjury is illegal. It still goes on, of course, but it is illegal.
    Apparently it's only illegal if someone is convicted, yes? Otherwise innocent until, which means many folks get off scott free especially on the side of the prosecutors so apparently perjury (I believe it's actually "thou shall not give false witness"), murder in my mind is killing with intent wherein self-defense is not present which includes wars and death penalty (though I don't believe the commandment is "murder" but instead "thou shall not kill" but I may be mistaken), and stealing...well the rich and owners of corporations have been stealing from their workers and taxpayers for most of our history without consequence.

    So I beg to differ that these things are always illegal, hence not a commandment. Commandments are pretty black and white.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    A gift? Donation? Deco? For the hell of it?
    To piss off the atheists?

    Maybe there is a reason after all.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric7216 View Post
    The above quote was basically a story told by a National Park Ranger, a federal employee, to tourists in Hawaii.
    Describing a local religion's beliefs is not an establishment of religion. The Ranger is not telling anyone what to believe, he's describing historical information.

    Putting a monument to the Ten Commandments on public lands is not the same as describing a religious belief. If the intent is to promulgate a religion, and it's on public land, it's a problem. Sometimes the courts let it slide because the intent is allegedly historical; e.g. if you have a display of 20 different historical legal documents that include the Code of Hammurabi and the Magna Carta and the Constitution of the Athenians, and the Ten Commandments is one among many (and is not, for example, 20 times larger than the others), I'd say you have a decent argument in favor of historicity. Courts occasionally apply the "Lemon Test" to help determine whether or not a given display runs afoul of the injunction against an establishment of religion.


    Not sure why so many people get so upset over the 10 Commandments but don't mind this other nonsense.
    It depends upon the context of the display.

    If there is a plaque that has a quasi-religious aspect (e.g. "the Earth is our mother") then even if it's religious in origin, it's not necessarily a problem. It may be historical in nature, its meaning may be secular, and so forth. If there is a plaque that basically says "this deity orders you to follow these legal principles," that's an establishment of religion.


    But why do so many get so upset over silly things that provide comfort to others at no cost or pain to themselves?
    Because some of us don't want a religion shoved down our throats by the state.

  10. #180
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    Re: Judge rules Ten Commandments monument must go

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I have no problem with the 10 Commandments being on a public building, as long as those of the Muslim faith are allowed to also put verses from the Quran on it.
    ok....

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