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Suburban Detroit homeowner convicted of second-degree murder in porch shooting

Excon said:
Just as your absurd opinion matters not to most as well.
Funny that you don't realize that is a given on these type of boards.



:doh Says the one who's opinion mattered not to the outcome as well. D'oh![
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Right now my life is going on fine and I have zero problems.




"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP

How are you doing? :roll:
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CycloneWanderer said:
Yeah, I don't see much evidence that would validate any claims of self-defense. If a drunk person is banging on your door in the middle of the night, call the cops and wait.

As for the tragedy of a teen dying like this: don't go off on your own in the middle of the night when you are hammered.
There are hundreds of ways you can get yourself seriously hurt or killed by doing so
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And those who kill you can end up just like the loser in this story, eh?

Does anyone get that message?

If you kill everyone who knocks on your door you might end up in prison.

Think about that the next time that you answer your door.
 
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apdst said:
Speaking of over-reacting.
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So shoot first, don't hesitate even for a second. If someone knocks on your door, they MIGHT be a criminal, so it's better to shoot them without hesitation. Sounds great. I don't think it's out of line to say that you should stop and think for a second if you're going to possibly kill another person.


What I'll point out here - to everyone who said during the Z/M dustup that "following someone isn't a crime" neither is knocking on someone's door.
 
rocket88 said:
That's great, but that doesn't mean you shoot everybody who knocks because one of them MIGHT hurt you.
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Before or after you put a few dozen holes in their bodies?

Fill us in.




Most people with massive blood loss are zero threat to anyone.
 
apdst said:
I never she was, however the homeowner thought she was, hence the reason he shot her. Right?

What happened here, is that the ability for citizens to protect their property has been taken away. Any time that happens, crime goes up.
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To "protect something", there must be a threat against that thing. In this case, there was no threat.
 
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j-mac said:
Fear and lack of training contributed to this.
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Don't forget stupidity. Only a fool would do what this Neanderthal did and shoot this girl through the door.
 
shrubnose said:
And those who kill you can end up just like the loser in this story, eh?

Does anyone get that message?

If you kill everyone who knocks on your door you might end up in prison.

Think about that the next time that you answer your door.
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I think you missed the entire first sentence where I think the jury made the right call.

My point is that there are hundreds of ways you can die by going out in the middle of the night alone when you are absolutely hammered. When I was in college, no students got murdered. However, three did die because they went out drunk and alone in the middle of the night. One passed out on train tracks while walking home during a heavy rain storm. One fell into a lake and drowned. One got knocked out when he fell down some stairs in a secluded location he had no reason to be and froze to death; he wasn't found till springtime when the snowdrift he ended up in melted. Literally nothing good ever comes from wandering around drunk and alone in the middle of the night. Yes, this woman shouldn't have been shot and I'm glad the guy who did it is going to jail. Let's take a moment to also recognize that the woman shouldn't have been out drunk and alone in the middle of the night. I'm not blaming her for getting shot; I'm encouraging others to take a moment to remind those they love who are young and crazy to be careful, be with friends, and watch out for each other when they are having a good time.
 
apdst said:
Anti-gunners hate gun owners, anyway. Since owning a gun is a civil right, I'n not interested in how this dude made us look.
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What you seem to be missing here is that with rights come responsibilities. You have the right of free speech but you are not allowed to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. And, of course, you have the right to bear arms but you are not allowed to commit murder with them. The only people we allow to carry no responsibility along with their rights are babies.
 
CycloneWanderer said:
I think you missed the entire first sentence where I think the jury made the right call.

My point is that there are hundreds of ways you can die by going out in the middle of the night alone when you are absolutely hammered. When I was in college, no students got murdered. However, three did die because they went out drunk and alone in the middle of the night. One passed out on train tracks while walking home during a heavy rain storm. One fell into a lake and drowned. One got knocked out when he fell down some stairs in a secluded location he had no reason to be and froze to death; he wasn't found till springtime when the snowdrift he ended up in melted. Literally nothing good ever comes from wandering around drunk and alone in the middle of the night. Yes, this woman shouldn't have been shot and I'm glad the guy who did it is going to jail. Let's take a moment to also recognize that the woman shouldn't have been out drunk and alone in the middle of the night.
I'm not blaming her for getting shot; I'm encouraging others to take a moment to remind those they love who are young and crazy to be careful, be with friends, and watch out for each other when they are having a good time.[
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,
Fine idea, but it won't stop things like what happened in this case from happening again, today or tomorrow,

Maybe if you and all of your friends could take a trip to the Detroit, Michigan area and go door to door with your message, you could change things there.

Maybe, but I'm betting that it's not going to happen.

I think that the more likely result is that you won't enjoy your trip.
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Texmex said:
Don't forget stupidity.
Only a fool would do what this Neanderthal did and shoot this girl through the door.
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Unfortunately fools with guns are supported all over the USA by other fools with guns.

They even have a national organization .
 
shrubnose said:
Fine idea, but it won't stop things like what happened in this case from happening again, today or tomorrow,

Maybe if you and all of your friends could take a trip to the Detroit, Michigan area and go door to door with your message, you could change things there.

Maybe, but I'm betting that it's not going to happen.

I think that the more likely result is that you won't enjoy your trip.
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You're a grump today. I don't give a **** about the gun angle of this story anymore; it's tragic and a jury handled it. I'm not trying to change the world. I just don't want anything bad like this to happen to the people I love and know something I can do about it: talk with them about the dangers of being lost, drunk, and alone in the middle of the night. I don't care if they drink and party and have fun, but I want them to be careful and make sure them and their friends are looking out for each other. It doesn't take long and thought that perhaps others might want to do the same for the people they love.
 
shrubnose said:
Before or after you put a few dozen holes in their bodies?

Fill us in.




Most people with massive blood loss are zero threat to anyone.
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I'm on your side, more or less. You can't shoot everybody who knocks on your door. What's next - shoot anyone on the street who MIGHT be a threat to you?
 
CycloneWanderer said:
You're a grump today.
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 I don't give a **** about the gun angle of this story anymore; it's tragic and a jury handled it. I'm not trying to change the world. I just don't want anything bad like this to happen to the people I love and know something I can do about it: talk with them about the dangers of being lost, drunk, and alone in the middle of the night. I don't care if they drink and party and have fun, but I want them to be careful and make sure them and their friends are looking out for each other. It doesn't take long and thought that perhaps others might want to do the same for the people they love.
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Wrong, I'm a 71-year old guy who's a grump everyday because reality is an unforgiving bitch that has zero patience for losers.
 
apdst said:
Anti-gunners hate gun owners, anyway. Since owning a gun is a civil right, I'n not interested in how this dude made us look.
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I am. The media feeds on it, and anti-gunners get all worked up, and then we have to hear about more and more 'laws' being proposed. It is possible for momentum to build....who needs each of these stupid little incidents eating away at our 2A related laws in every state?

Not only that, I dont feel that gun owners should just 'knee jerk' look to excuse or make excuses/rationalize poor behavior and poor judgement. It just hurts our credibility to be seen as sweeping things under the rug and not addressing real events head on.

Just IMO.
 
Lursa said:
I am. The media feeds on it, and anti-gunners get all worked up, and then we have to hear about more and more 'laws' being proposed. It is possible for momentum to build....who needs each of these stupid little incidents eating away at our 2A related laws in every state?

Not only that, I dont feel that gun owners should just 'knee jerk' look to excuse or make excuses/rationalize poor behavior and poor judgement. It just hurts our credibility to be seen as sweeping things under the rug and not addressing real events head on.

Just IMO.
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Don't worry about a thing, if anyone knocks on your door too hard, just do what you have to do and let apdst deal with the backwash.
 
shrubnose said:
Wrong, I'm a 71-year old guy who's a grump everyday because reality is an unforgiving bitch that has zero patience for losers.
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I'm confused. How does your being a grump every day make my statement that you are a grump today wrong? Just because reality is an unforgiving ***** that has zero patience for losers doesn't give you an excuse to act like a combative ***** who goes out of his way to pick fights with well-intentioned internet forum posters. Goodness, being 71 years old can excuse a lot of inappropriate social behaviors, but it doesn't excuse that behavior.
 
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rocket88 said:
I'm on your side, more or less. You can't shoot everybody who knocks on your door.
What's next - shoot anyone on the street who MIGHT be a threat to you?
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If they're trying to occupy the same space that you're occupying you just might need to send them a message that they can't ignore with a magazine full of hot lead.

Some people call that standing your ground.
 
CycloneWanderer said:
I'm confused. How does your being a grump every day make my statement that you are a grump today wrong? Just because reality is an unforgiving ***** that has zero patience for losers doesn't give you an excuse to act like a combative ***** who goes out of his way to pick fights with well-intentioned internet forum posters. Goodness, being 71 years old can excuse a lot of inappropriate social behaviors,
but it doesn't excuse that behavior.
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What you have posted is all your opinion, which you are entitled to and I will ignore.

Have a nice day.
 
Superfly said:
Where did you read that the shooter was drunk and high? From what I read, he was asleep at 430am, when he heard a knock on his door.
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Actually he said he heard pounding on multiple windows and doors, rather than just a knock on the door. Big difference.
 
Buck Ewer said:
The earlier "accidental discharge" defense actually worked against him.
The act of pointing the shotgun at a person with the safety off, made him guilty of involuntary manslaughter. But when he said "I raised the gun and shot", convicted him on second degree murder as well.
Wafer never said that he feared for his life. He testified that he was "worried" that someone might break in and that he was "worried " that he may be harmed.
Worry is not a threat. Worry about what someone might do is not grounds for self defense.
Renisha McBride | Theodore Wafer | Closing Arguments
It also came out in testimony that Wafer was angry and looking for a confrontation because his car had been vandalized by kids shooting paintball guns at it.
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Just another reason why every gun owner needs to know the laws, and to NOT talk to the police without a lawyer, preferably one well-educated in gun law.
 
Muhammed said:
Actually he said he heard pounding on multiple windows and doors, rather than just a knock on the door. Big difference.
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And then there's the muddy footprint on the a/c unit that wasn't properly processed as evidence. I know I keep going on about this, but it's a game-changer, at least for me. There's pounding on a door in the middle of the night (no testimony, insofar as I'm aware, of McBride hollering "Help me!"), and then there's somebody standing on your outside a/c unit and perhaps looking into your bedroom.

I am not supporting Wafer's shooting. I don't understand his saying that it was an "accident" and that he didn't know the gun was loaded. How irresponsible is this? Why couldn't he find his cell if he were able to locate his weapon? Why didn't he call 9-1-1?

At the same time, somebody beating on my door and on windows too would scare the heck out of me in the middle of the night.
 
apdst said:
It's the message that will be received. Now, people aren't going to know if they're over-reacting and they're going to hesitate.
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CON poppycock...

The message is simple, an intruder INSIDE your home is DRT. YOU open your front door and shoot through a screen door you SHOULD hesitate BEFORE you open the door and remove a solid protective barrier.

People should 'hesitate' and EVALUATE the person for a threat before using deadly force.

Firearm owners should ALWAYS 'hesitate' before using deadly force outside the home and take time to ensure the use of deadly force is warranted.

But as far as a home invader scenario is concerned, nothing changed, as far as shooting people standing outside your home.... :peace
 
So reading about his testimony (found a live blog recap from the Detroit Free Press), he fell asleep in a recliner, and didn't see anything indicating he was in his bed or thus likely bedroom, no idea where people/media got that unless missed something? Oh and he had been drinking earlier, but it was almost 12 hours prior iirc.

He hadn't put his phone on the charger by his recliner, felt for it when woken up and just felt the charger. Got up and turned off the hall light, looked for the phone in the kitchen and didn't find it. Doesn't say how long he stood in the kitchen afterwards. Banging stops for a few seconds, then starts again. He goes and guess first grabs a bat, then gets the gun instead. Normally doesn't keep it loaded, had loaded after the paintball incident though. Opens the door to get a look (also I guess because he didn't want to cower in his house?), person comes running from the side door and he shoots in fear/as a reflex. They fall back, he puts the weapon down, sees the boots look like those of a female. He then goes to find his phone (again), finds it in the pocket of his pants hanging in the bathroom.
Says he can't replicate the noise in the courtroom. Oh also didn't look out the windows or call out afraid it'd give away his position in the house.


The problem I have is I'd think if someone in banging loudly on my door I'm going to frantically search everywhere for my phone to call 9-1-1, and certainly not going to open the door to try to get a peak and/or not cower in the house. I don't fault for not calling out or looking out the window, I wouldn't either. Not so much for the reason of giving away position though.
 
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