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Thread: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

  1. #191
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    Re: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    It also wasn't technically "enemy action," since these guys are ostensibly friendlies that we were training.
    So you already know the assassin was not al qaeda or Taliban? Awesome.

    In my opinion this was a military action undertaken to assassinate a general officer and as many of his staff as possible. It worked.

  2. #192
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    Re: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    …We invaded Afghanistan due to 9/11.
    Not good enough. How long will it take this to sink in:

    (From post #149) The short, sweet and simple point to staying in Afghanistan is above all else to avoid giving the place back to the same nightcreatures who had attacked us, and who we removed from power in 2001.

    Our nightcreature enemies are on the verge of annulling the results of effort in Iraq because WE LEFT TOO EARLY. Only a real idiot could even think about making the same mistake in Afghanistan.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    A)This is the internet. Simply saying you have a high GPA…
    You don’t even remember what you wrote, do you?

    Take another look at your post #167 for why I needed to cite my educational credentials.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Two, any decent points you do make are hidden by the fact that you feel the need to not only comment on the topic at hand, but also comment on things that no one really cares about and attempt to insult people who haven't insulted you.
    I only insult people who deserve to be insulted.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Comments such as "Or were you too busy keeping up with your homework to pay attention to the news back then? (Haha- homework? you?)" are unwarranted. Again, this references my belief that you were in fact a teenager or early 20's punk.

    Like a punk yourself.

    Take another look your post (#142) that started our conversation. I take it, I dish it out. Your *ss hurts where my foot imprint is? Don’t start something you can’t finish.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    B) You can tell yourself whatever you need to in order to feel better about your not serving in Vietnam.
    It would not do any good to lose sleep over it so I never have.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    I agree that you don't need to have served to be able to have an opinion on wars that our country does or doesn't participate in…
    Good to have you on board. It would still be a good idea for you to take a few PoliSci courses.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    What I don't agree with is…
    Skip the speeches.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Now, on to Afghanistan…
    More Troops in 2001:
    No, more doesn't always mean better. If that were the case, we would have gone in heavy at the beginning like we did in Iraq.
    Stop right there!

    You just got through saying in your last post that there was only one airport available for us in Afghanistan. Now you pull a flipflop because, apparently, one airport was no problemmo after all, as in we could “ have gone in heavy like we did in Iraq.”

    Everything that follows is therefore a self-contradiction by you not formally requiring rebuttal from me. Since it is so full of complete nonsense I will nevertheless deal with it.

    I will from here on be using the following previously cited link for information which I will designate by underlining rather than go to the trouble of setting off with quotation sections:

    The United States Army in Afghanistan Operation ENDURING FREEDOM October 2001-March 2002



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    As it is, we went in with small groups of elite troops such as ODA's, CIA paramilitary, etc. Their mission was to train the Northern Alliance and lead them in to combat against the Taliban.
    Incorrect.

    Their mission was reinforcement on the ground, and directing close air support.

    You think Kabul could have been taken (11/14/01) less than four weeks after our first men set foot in the country (10/19) if we had had to wait on training everybody? Most to all of the warriors of the NA had been engaged in mountain warfare for most to all of their lives, many going back to the Soviet era 1979-1988. Once we delivered NA was capable of leading itself all the way to Kabul, and it was their leaders who were in command.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Note the NORTHERN Alliance ie the North was not a haven for the Taliban like the south was. I never said there wasn't a Taliban presence anywhere else in the country. I simply stated they were concentrated in the south.
    You said that Afghanistan was not a giant safe house for Taliban, and that was incorrect. It was in firm control of about 2/3 of the country, and since the entire country is the size of Texas Taliban’s share made for a damn big safe house.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Small groups like ODA's, which I have worked with extensively in Iraq, do not need nor do they want the burden of conventional units attached to them during the type of mission they were conducting in 2001...
    Only a FEW HUNDRED elite US troops were needed to to drive Taliban from power, and we had a lot more than a few hundred available, didn’t we ???

    Also, as far as I can determine The it was the US Army which conducted all ground operations in Afghanistan for the first several weeks of the war.

    The USMC had set up positions in Pakistan, but did not enter Afghanistan until 11/25, when it committed the 15th MEU. If they had begun to go in to stay during the 101 AB raid in October the city might have fallen weeks earlier, and we might have gotten our hands on the Taliban leader, Mullah Omar, who is still at large today.

    Also, THERE ARE SIX OTHER USMC MEUs. A half an additional MEU, sent in as soon as Kabul fell and then sent against Tora Bora could have taken OBL and other AQ before they had a chance to rationalize both defenses and escape routes.

    The whole problem was that George Bush and Colin Powell were so paranoid about US casualties that they held our elite troops back so as to let the Afghanis spill all the blood if possible, even when, as at Kandahar and Tora Bora, Afghani forces were far below the standard for effectiveness set by NA earlier in the war.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    ...Simply pointing to terrain on a map and saying "Go there and complete this mission"
    That is exactly what our fighting men and women have been asked to do since 2001, and they delivered every time. Every single time. I guess all that was while you were on guard duty.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    Further, tactics do not win wars. Logistics do…
    Oh, but according to you if more had meant better “we would have gone in heavy at the beginning like we did in Iraq.” Therefore, according to you, logistics for a larger operation in Afghanistan would not have been a problem.



    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier
    …The reason Iraq turned out the way it did is because we sent in a blunt object to correct a problem that required a precision instrument. I was there for the invasion of Iraq and it was much bigger debacle that was portrayed on TV.
    A debacle? The 2003 invasion of Iraq a debacle? A country that size defended by several 100,000 conquered in 41 days a debacle???

    It was a textbook operation if there ever was one.

    For you to suggest it might have been accomplished by a few 100 specops tells me it is time to end our conversation, because your command of proportion, fact and logic is short of what it takes for you to be a worthwhile opponent.

    Good bye.

  3. #193
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    Re: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

    Part I
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Not good enough. How long will it take this to sink in........ Afghanistan.
    How does that harm us? Iraq wasn't even a center of terrorism then. We actually found people carrying passports in Iraq that had the purpose of their visit from Syria/Saudi/Iran/etc as "jihad". AQ didn't exist in Iraq until we came in. Saddam wouldn't allow it. Sunnis were in power and Shias were oppressed. Sunnis, if you know anything about OIF, were the very people that manned AQI. So by your logic the Sunnis of Sunni friendly Iraq were there to terrorize their own Sunni gov't and then attack other countries as well. Riiiiight. Iraq was a brutally ruled country. However, there are many brutally ruled countries in our world. Are we to invade every one of them to liberate the people there? No.
    Afghanistan did house the people responsible for 9/11, sure. We went in, routed them, and then should have left the NA in power to control their own country. We maybe could have left Special Ops guys there and used our air bases in neighboring countries to give them air support. This would have fulfilled the intent of allowing the Afghani's to lead their own revolution and allowed us to keep eyes on the situation. Those guys are training exactly for that type of UW. Afghanistan was going well until people such as yourself started pounding the table to put more and more troops in there. Now, we're in the same spot we were with Iraq. A populace against us, a corrupt puppet gov't, and a terrorist group waiting in the wings for us to leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    You don’t even remember what you wrote, do you?....Skip the speeches.
    I'll treat all of the above as avoidance of debate, which is exactly what you do most of the time. Kind of like your ending to this post with your "Goodbye" that every user on this website attempts to use when they don't really have a point anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    You just got through saying...
    The mission was to kill or capture OBL correct? You stated so yourself and stated that going in heavy would have given us a better chance to do so. My contention was, in previous posts, that you can't go in heavy and chase him at the same time due to the fact that a heavy footprint requires the unit to establish a supply train. That is something that you can't do while still chasing OBL. Sure, the SF, CIA, etc guys would have been doing that anyway but your contention is that the extra troops you think we should have brought in would have been in on that chase as well. That's not the case. They would have been establishing a way to resupply themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Incorrect.Their mission was reinforcement on the ground, and directing close air support. You think Kabul could have been taken (11/14/01) less than four weeks after our first men set foot in the country (10/19) if we had had to wait on training everybody? Most to all of the warriors of the NA had been engaged in mountain warfare for most to all of their lives, many going back to the Soviet era 1979-1988. Once we delivered NA was capable of leading itself all the way to Kabul, and it was their leaders who were in command.
    Ah, you read a brochure and assume you know the whole story. I'm picking up on a continuing theme with you. You think reading a book or report that has been sanitized over and over makes you an expert on what is going on somewhere. Personally, I'd rather know someone who was there and hear from them what was going on. We had CIA operatives on deck in Afghanistan before 9/11 even occurred. What do you think they were doing? Training the NA in the employment of combined arms. You keep reading your brochures though.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    You said that Afghanistan was not a giant safe house for Taliban....
    Again, know guys who were there and have been there myself. Keep reading your books though. The Taliban CONTROLLED the Helmand Province and had a presence in the rest of the country. There is a huge difference in controlling something and having a presence.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    [U]Only a FEW HUNDRED elite US troops were needed.....
    That's true. US Army SF, 160 SOAR, etc. As I've said repeatedly. Miss that did you?
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    The USMC had set up positions in Pakistan,....
    Or they would have went in earlier and tipped off OBL and we wouldn't have gotten as close as we did to getting him. Also, just to get it through your thick head, you can't maneuver conventional troops where SF, CIA, etc can go. The units are too big, too unwieldy, and not trained for that purpose. In addition, MEU's are not designed to engage in sustained ground combat. They are designed to deliver one hard punch, hold the ground they gain from that punch, then wait for reinforcement. That and a few other specialized missions that don't apply here.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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  4. #194
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    Re: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

    Part 2
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    Also, THERE ARE SIX OTHER USMC MEUs.....
    Lol. Your ignorance reveals itself again. You do know that of the 6 MEU's, two are deployed, two are on a rest cycle, and two are training to deploy correct? I've deployed with one. The 26th. Remember the Milosevic operation I told you about? They can't/don't all deploy at the same time. As a matter of fact, the GCE (know what that is?) doesn't even stay attached to a MEU upon return to CONUS. MEU's are manned with BLT's which are a mix of units from each respective coast that are put together, trained for 6 months, and then deployed. Upon their return, they are disbanded and sent back to their parent regiments. Once that MEU's rotation comes up, a new group of units is assembled, trained, and deployed. They are not some force you can just throw together at the drop of a hat to deploy. The MEU that is deployed is the one that reacts to situations such as this. Read a book bro.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    The whole problem was that George Bush.....
    The elite troops were the ones deployed!!! It doesn't get any better than SF, CIA Paramilitary, Delta Force, etc. That's who was on the ground man. Don't you get that? Bush and Powell were spot on with their strategy. They did exactly the right thing. We should have left all together or rotated a fresh batch of them in as soon as the NA routed the Taliban and left it at that. As it is, we decided to go heavy as you advocate and it turned the entire populace against us. Maybe if you would have gone to Vietnam instead of pulling a Newt Gingrich you would know how that works.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    That is exactly what our fighting men....
    Lol. A guy who dodged Vietnam attempts a smarmy joke about service. How asinine is that? Anyway, there are examples of leaders sending troops into untenable terrain and those troops failing because of it. Perfect example that I saw personally. Col Dowdy, the TF Tarawa commander during OIF I in 2003, sent an AMTRAK unit up the right flank of An Nasiriyah even though the maps depicted it as a marsh. In his eyes, despite what his subordinates were telling him, it was open desert. The AMRTRAKs went in, bogged down, and the whole platoon was almost slaughtered because they couldn't move the traks and the infantryman aboard them couldn't slog through the marsh because it was too thick. Turns out not only was it a marsh, but a sewage outlet as well. That is terrain that can't be navigated. We aren't super human. Most of our leaders of cognizant of terrain and take it into consideration when it may dictate the way the mission is conducted ie METT-TSL. If you would have served, you would know what that acronym means. Try looking it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    A debacle?.....
    Textbook right until the time we got to Baghdad. Every day we had to patrol those streets and see the looks on people's face when they realized we were just as powerless as they were. We just looked like we were powerful. OIF I was a debacle my man. Again, you weren't there. I was. I know.
    Quote Originally Posted by USViking View Post
    For you to suggest.....
    That's exactly what I'm saying but you are attempting to cut and run on this debate because you realize that while you may be knowledgeable of a textbook, conventional war like WWII, you have no idea the complexities of fighting a war in a COIN environment. Ever hear of the Three Block War? Trying reading up on that concept dodger. Maybe if you'd have served in 'Nam, you would know what I speak of. Those guys dealt with similar circumstances.
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  5. #195
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    Re: American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    American General Killed in Shooting at Afghan Military Academy - ABC News



    Very serious, I hope the response to this from the US is a military one. We can't allow this.


    These events never took place.

    It is all Right Wing Lies, Propaganda and Deception, and this whole story belongs on the CT forum!

    These people were killed by White, Right Wing Terrorists.

    Islam, by Definition, is a Religion of Peace and Beauty... or had you momentarily forgotten.

    Muslims, by Definition, are victims of Christian Agression... or had you momentarily forgotten.

    We have people who can help you remember, should you forget again.

    Have a nice day.

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