• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. economy bounces back sharply

Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

If you think the USA is more "socialistic" than China, you must have a unique definition of the term.

Neither country is socialist but I think it is fair to say that China is moving away from a socialist system and the U.S. is moving toward one.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

What?

Last month 523K full jobs were eliminated - while 799K part time jobs were created...for a probable net loss in hours worked.

Table A-9. Selected employment indicators

On what planet is less hours worked and over 1/2 a million jobs lost an improvement?

I find it hypocritical amusing to see someone who is so critical of government data have no problem using the same data when it can be used (weakly) to support their ideology.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

Neither country is socialist but I think it is fair to say that China is moving away from a socialist system and the U.S. is moving toward one.

China has definitely moved away from a socialistic economy, and is doing very well with it. Capitalism does seem to be working for them, much better than any of Mao's "great leaps forward" ever did.

Is the USA really moving toward a socialist economy? That claim is a bit more shaky, it seems to me. Whereas socialism is government ownership of the means of production, the current situation looks a lot more to me like the means of production, i.e., the large corporations, own the government.
 
Neither country is socialist but I think it is fair to say that China is moving away from a socialist system and the U.S. is moving toward one.

Just as Leninism greatly differs from Marxism, Maoism should never be confused with what Americans refer to socialism.
 
The Actor Donald Sutherland from " Invasion of the Body Snatchers " fame is a huge Lib.

Just sayin......

Because it would take a insurmountable amount of blind allegiance to a left wing ideology to create a thread like this.

When you can't argue the facts, try and discredit the messenger...
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

Is the USA really moving toward a socialist economy?

It looks like it to me. When I was young people relied on individual motivation to solve problems and make things happen. These days society seems content to let govenrment handle it. Government handles it very badly but nobody seems to care. It looks like the current direction very clearly to me.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

It looks like it to me. When I was young people relied on individual motivation to solve problems and make things happen. These days society seems content to let govenrment handle it. Government handles it very badly but nobody seems to care. It looks like the current direction very clearly to me.

I've noticed the same thing.
Socialism, however, is an economic system in which the means of production is owned and ruin by the government.
 
When BEA calculates the advance estimate, the Bureau doesn’t yet have complete source data, with the largest gaps in data related to the third month of the quarter. In particular, the advance estimate is lacking complete source data on inventories, trade, and consumer spending on services. Therefore, BEA must make assumptions for these missing pieces based in part on past trends. As part of this process, we publish a detailed technical note that lays out the assumptions made for a particular estimate. BEA also publishes detailed materials on the standardized procedures and methods used in the various vintages of the GDP estimates.

As new and more complete data become available, that information is incorporated into the second and third GDP estimates. About 45 percent of the advance estimate is based on initial or early estimates from various monthly and quarterly surveys that are subject to revision for various reasons, including late respondents that are eventually incorporated into the survey results. Another roughly 14 percent of the advance estimate is based on historical trends.

In other words, the advance estimate is basically worthless. My expectation is that these numbers will be revised downward substantially as were the Q1 numbers.
 
When you can't argue the facts, try and discredit the messenger...

" Argue the facts " ?

Uhm, President Snow posted data minus the context needed to qualify it accurately as "positive economic news " and I suspect he did that on purpose.

If you need a more detailed explanation as to what I'm referring to I defer to DA60s post in this thread.
 
In other words, the advance estimate is basically worthless. My expectation is that these numbers will be revised downward substantially as were the Q1 numbers.

lol yes, because the numbers aren't actuals, that means they're worthless. Estimates are completely pointless and useless and mean nothing at all. :roll:
 
" Argue the facts " ?

Uhm, President Snow posted data minus the context needed to qualify it accurately as "positive economic news " and I suspect he did that on purpose.

If you need a more detailed explanation as to what I'm referring to I defer to DA60s post in this thread.

If one recalls, following last month's gloomy Q1 revision (-2.9% figure revised now to -2.1%), there was speculation that the economy was sinking into a new recession. I revisited things to see how that speculation (not shared among economists) held up.

Even as the sharp contraction was reported, there was subsequent data from April, May, and June indicating that the contraction had been temporary and that the economy was rebounding. Economists had information that grounded their assessment that the contraction was temporary. Economic forecasts for Q2 generally called for real annualized growth in the 3%-4% range. Indeed, I mentioned such forecasts in the earlier thread concerning the Q1 contraction.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...cession-1q-w-487-681-a-41.html#post1063456160

Now that the Q2 data is out, even considering future revisions, it is clear that the Q1 contraction was a temporary dip. The narrative of modest to occasionally moderate growth has been reaffirmed.

Eventually, there will be another recession. For now, that's not the case.
 
In other words, the advance estimate is basically worthless. My expectation is that these numbers will be revised downward substantially as were the Q1 numbers.

Advance estimates provide some insight. Obviously, they are subject to greater degree of uncertainty than the final estimate, but they do provide some useful information. Although the final Q2 figure is likely to differ from the 4.0% figure reported today, today's growth report is sufficiently strong that one can now conclude that the Q1 data did not suggest the beginning of a recession. Hence, the Fed's current monetary policy path and gentle reduction in QE will likely be maintained at its next meeting (September 16-17).
 
If one recalls, following last month's gloomy Q1 revision (-2.9% figure revised now to -2.1%), there was speculation that the economy was sinking into a new recession. I revisited things to see how that speculation (not shared among economists) held up.

Even as the sharp contraction was reported, there was subsequent data from April, May, and June indicating that the contraction had been temporary and that the economy was rebounding. Economists had information that grounded their assessment that the contraction was temporary. Economic forecasts for Q2 generally called for real annualized growth in the 3%-4% range. Indeed, I mentioned such forecasts in the earlier thread concerning the Q1 contraction.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...cession-1q-w-487-681-a-41.html#post1063456160

Now that the Q2 data is out, even considering future revisions, it is clear that the Q1 contraction was a temporary dip. The narrative of modest to occasionally moderate growth has been reaffirmed.

Eventually, there will be another recession. For now, that's not the case.

A National 3 percent " temporary dip " because of inclement weather ?

Texas Winters are mild BTW.

That was the absurd narrative being bandied around by supporters of the President as they continued to mitigate away the failures of their chosen ideology.

Truth is poverty rates have increased , we've doubled the number of people who're dependant on Food stamps and disability and millions more continue to struggle with part time only positions.

The reason why I don't have much respect for people like you is you would pick and chose economic data to construct a facade that protects a political ideology first.

That is you've chosen to ignore the millions of struggling Americans because to acknowledge their CONTINUED plight would mean acknowledging the failures of this administration. A facade of economic prosperity or even growth is more important to those on the left than truth just because they lack the integrity and humility to admit they're wrong.

Problem is, how do you help those people wiithout a honest and objective analysis of our economic issues ? How do you determine what WORKS economically and what DOESN'T WORK when you people insist upon twisting the data to suite your political position ? Its pretty cold hearted.

Do you even CARE what works and what doesn't and wouldn't you just rather have the poor and the dependant keep their mouths shut ?

Wouldn't it be advantageous if we stopped keeping track on who collects unemployment, food stamps, welfare , disability and who's under or unemployed ?
 
Last edited:
Yep, expect glowingly good reports through the election cycle.
:lol: Yeah, remember that breathtaking growth figure of .1 percent before the 2012 cycle? The BEA is clearly in the pocket of Obama.
 
Not coming out of a recession it ain't.
There was no recession though. This is supported by the todays report and robust job growth in the time since.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

What?

Last month 523K full jobs were eliminated - while 799K part time jobs were created...for a probable net loss in hours worked.

Table A-9. Selected employment indicators

On what planet is less hours worked and over 1/2 a million jobs lost an improvement?
Cherry picking select indicators on a month by month basis while ignoring long term trends is pretty close to useless. It's fairly apparent that you're not interested in looking at any positive indicators that run contrary to your own beliefs.
 
A National 3 percent " temporary dip " because of inclement weather ?

Texas Winters are mild BTW.

That was the absurd narrative being bandied around by supporters of the President as they continued to mitigate away the failures of their chosen ideology.

Truth is poverty rates have increased , we've doubled the number of people who're dependant on Food stamps and disability and millions more continue to struggle with part time only positions.

The reason why I don't have much respect for people like you is you would pick and chose economic data to construct a facade that protects a political ideology first.

That is you've chosen to ignore the millions of struggling Americans because to acknowledge their CONTINUED plight would mean acknowledging the failures of this administration. A facade of economic prosperity or even growth is more important to those on the left than truth just because they lack the integrity and humility to admit they're wrong.

Problem is, how do you help those people wiithout a honest and objective analysis of our economic issues ? How do you determine what WORKS economically and what DOESN'T WORK when you people insist upon twisting the data to suite your political position ? Its pretty cold hearted.

Do you even CARE what works and what doesn't and wouldn't you just rather have the poor and the dependant keep their mouths shut ?

Wouldn't it be advantageous if we stopped keeping track on who collects unemployment, food stamps, welfare , disability and who's under or unemployed ?

It appears that you assume that politics and ideology play a disproportionately large role when it comes to explaining macroeconomic performance. Hence, you appear to assume my points are also rooted in politics and ideology.

Political factors are just one element in shaping the nation’s economic performance. If political factors were the leading explanation, the nation could experience continual robust recession-free growth, as the public being self-interested would continually choose the policy makers who knew how to manage the economy. Any other choice would be irrational. Moreover, when it came to economic policy, there would be interparty consensus. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

Politics plays some role in the whole scheme of things, but pundits greatly overstate that role. Upon President Reagan’s taking office, numerous Democrats argued that the economy was doomed (and claimed that their narrative had credibility during the 1981-82 downturn). When President Obama took office, numerous Republicans held similarly gloomy views. Both political narratives proved incorrect.

Quite frankly, I could care less who is in the White House when discussing the economy. I’m interested in discussing the state of the economy as it really is and its direction. If one wants to credit/blame the President, that’s a separate matter.

With respect to the Q1 economic performance and what ultimately proved to be a temporary contraction—and economists nailed the temporary nature of that contraction—was, in part, due to weather-related disruptions. It was not solely due to bad weather.

One saw references to weather in preceding economic reports and also the Fed’s own discussion of economic conditions. The weather-related explanation was not something that was suddenly introduced when the GDP data was revised to show a significant quarterly contraction.

There were some additional factors, too. For example, China underwent a growth pause of sorts where its growth fell below the levels it had been sustaining in recent years. Since then, China has experienced a pickup in its growth rate.

Moreover, I’m not ignoring “millions of struggling Americans.” For example, I’ve also posted data concerning longer-term unemployment, broader measures of unemployment, and information about people not in the labor force and compared them to the pre-recession figures. Although June saw some nice improvements, those figures remain generally well above pre-recession figures.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...my-adds-288-000-jobs-june.html#post1063481874

Finally, I do care what works/does not. I read through the empirical data and the many reports that are regularly published. The factors impacting the economy are numerous and their interactions highly complex. Not all of those interactions are well understood or well-modeled, leaving large areas of uncertainty. Not surprisingly, economic forecasts beyond the shortest-term ones are often subject to large error.
 
lol yes, because the numbers aren't actuals, that means they're worthless. Estimates are completely pointless and useless and mean nothing at all. :roll:

Given what happened with the Q1 data, it is hard to see what good the initial figures are for anyone.
 
It appears that you assume that politics and ideology play a disproportionately large role when it comes to explaining macroeconomic performance. Hence, you appear to assume my points are also rooted in politics and ideology.

Political factors are just one element in shaping the nation’s economic performance. If political factors were the leading explanation, the nation could experience continual robust recession-free growth, as the public being self-interested would continually choose the policy makers who knew how to manage the economy. Any other choice would be irrational. Moreover, when it came to economic policy, there would be interparty consensus. Unfortunately, that’s not the case.

Politics plays some role in the whole scheme of things, but pundits greatly overstate that role. Upon President Reagan’s taking office, numerous Democrats argued that the economy was doomed (and claimed that their narrative had credibility during the 1981-82 downturn). When President Obama took office, numerous Republicans held similarly gloomy views. Both political narratives proved incorrect.

Quite frankly, I could care less who is in the White House when discussing the economy. I’m interested in discussing the state of the economy as it really is and its direction. If one wants to credit/blame the President, that’s a separate matter.

With respect to the Q1 economic performance and what ultimately proved to be a temporary contraction—and economists nailed the temporary nature of that contraction—was, in part, due to weather-related disruptions. It was not solely due to bad weather.

One saw references to weather in preceding economic reports and also the Fed’s own discussion of economic conditions. The weather-related explanation was not something that was suddenly introduced when the GDP data was revised to show a significant quarterly contraction.

There were some additional factors, too. For example, China underwent a growth pause of sorts where its growth fell below the levels it had been sustaining in recent years. Since then, China has experienced a pickup in its growth rate.

Moreover, I’m not ignoring “millions of struggling Americans.” For example, I’ve also posted data concerning longer-term unemployment, broader measures of unemployment, and information about people not in the labor force and compared them to the pre-recession figures. Although June saw some nice improvements, those figures remain generally well above pre-recession figures.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...my-adds-288-000-jobs-june.html#post1063481874

Finally, I do care what works/does not. I read through the empirical data and the many reports that are regularly published. The factors impacting the economy are numerous and their interactions highly complex. Not all of those interactions are well understood or well-modeled, leaving large areas of uncertainty. Not surprisingly, economic forecasts beyond the shortest-term ones are often subject to large error.

One more time.

How can we guage the effectiveness of economic principles and or " solutions " without objective analysis ? If you or any other Obama supporter " cared " you wouldn't be perpetuating talking points.

You would be offering a honest and comprehensive account of our current economic conditions AND you would be criticizing the policies that have led to the worst peace time " recovery " in our Nation's history.

You wouldn't be predisposed to spinning superficial economic data that's intended to ignore the continued struggles of Millions of Americans who have had to become dependant on Government support in one way or another.

Thats right, every bit of " positive economic " data released by this White House is on a fundamental level designed to white wash over the growing class of impoverished, dependant Americans.

Dont believe me ? When was the last time Obama publicly acknowledged the 20 million new food stamp recipients ? When was the last time he publicly acknowledged the fact that so many of the new jobs created are part time or that our disability rolls have doubled ? ? When was the last time he publicly acknowledged the growing poverty numbers ?

You know instead of his BS victory speeches about economic " growth ".

Increasing poverty rates bothers Obama and the Democrats NOT because they're concerned about the plight of those afflicted. But because it makes them look bad and thats cold hearted.

Hey, I would like to think that everyone, including you sincerely cares about the welfare of the people who have been struggling for the last 6 years but then again, I'm not a Obam supporter.

That means I can be loyal to objectivity and truth and not to ideology.
 
One more time.

How can we guage the effectiveness of economic principles and or " solutions " without objective analysis ? If you or any other Obama supporter " cared " you wouldn't be perpetuating talking points.

The weather impact was mentioned in such publications as the Fed's Beige Book. Those publications were released well prior to the July release of the 2.9% contraction (now revised to 2.1%).

You would be offering a honest and comprehensive account of our current economic conditions AND you would be criticizing the policies that have led to the worst peace time " recovery " in our Nation's history.

Policies have had some impact. The expiration of the payroll tax holiday and fiscal cliff tax deal had a modest negative impact on growth. But non-policy factors have played a large role, too. Household deleveraging had a large impact on dampening personal consumption expenditures growth (still the largest component of GDP).

Thats right, every bit of " positive economic " data released by this White House is on a fundamental level designed to white wash over the growing class of impoverished, dependant Americans.

The Bureau of Economic Analysis releases the GDP data.

Increasing poverty rates bothers Obama and the Democrats...

The poverty rate is remains 2.5 percentage points above the pre-recession figure of 2007 (15.0% vs. 12.5%). The 2013 figure will be released in September. The question as to what role policy plays and what role non-policy factors plays in its remaining elevated remains to be determined. Without doubt, the recession fueled the increase.

But what about the lack of response/delayed decline since the end of the recession? If that lack of response were unique, one could have a stronger argument regarding the policy front specific to the current Administration. However, that pattern also occurred following the 1990-91 recession and very mild 2001 recession. That stickiness suggests larger factors may be at play. No definitive conclusions have been reached. Some arguments that have been made concern muted real income growth, rising income inequality, etc. Even if those factors play a large role, root causes are also not a matter of consensus. Some progressives suggest that making the Tax Code more progressive/increased income redistribution could address some of that matter. Other literature argues that an ongoing secular economic transition related to the evolution of the information revolution is leading to the increasing automation of low-skill/repetitive-type work with income increasingly being skewed toward knowledge/creative work and that this trend is behind growing income inequality. Such literature hints that increased and improved education may be the most relevant approach for dealing with that inequality. If the latter argument is correct, how to improve education at all levels and how to develop a coherent approach to training workers are examples of questions that would need to be addressed. I suspect that literature to which I refer concerning a secular economic transition is closer to explaining the root cause of growing income inequality and anemic growth in real median wages in the U.S.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

I've noticed the same thing.
Socialism, however, is an economic system in which the means of production is owned and ruin by the government.

Yes and we've had touches of it. Just recently General Motors was taken from the stockholders and operated by the government. The company was freed after the debt was forgiven but it was a socialized company for a while. I read never ending hatred of corporations from the left on this forum and the desire to have the government get involved with how they are managed. It is horrifying to me. Definitely trending toward socialism. Hopefully we can reverse the trend.
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

Apparently the 'bounce back' maybe a dead cat...or a sick one anyway.

'The Chicago purchasing managers index unexpectedly plunged to 52.6 in July from 62.6 in May.
Economists were expecting the index to climb to 63.0.

"A monthly fall of this magnitude has not been seen since October 2008 and left the Barometer at its lowest level since June 2013," said MNI Chicago in its press release'


Chicago PMI, July 2014 - Business Insider
 
Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

Yes and we've had touches of it. Just recently General Motors was taken from the stockholders and operated by the government. The company was freed after the debt was forgiven but it was a socialized company for a while. I read never ending hatred of corporations from the left on this forum and the desire to have the government get involved with how they are managed. It is horrifying to me. Definitely trending toward socialism. Hopefully we can reverse the trend.

The General Motors bailout and subsequent control by government is an example of an experiment in socialism. It didn't last long.
Does the "left" really want the government to start running corporations, or are they simply opposed to the corporations running the government?
 
Back
Top Bottom