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Thread: U.S. economy bounces back sharply

  1. #101
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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I already answered that twice.
    So did I. It's the guys with the bucks.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Btw, the DOW has dropped over 300 points today.

    For the record, on December 31, 2013 the DOW closed at 16,576.73.

    Right now it is 16,569.33.

    So it's down for the year, so far.
    I am sure when the humans stop trading the market it will go right back up.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Greetings, Polgara. I wish I could get the government to run all of my competitors' businesses. That would certainly give me a leg up. It's hard to imagine where the socialist tendencies arised in today's youth. It certainly wasn't from the history of american business.
    I read a most interesting article recently that discussed this very topic. It started out by explaining what the intent of our Founders was in writing the Declaration of Independence, particularly the line "all men are created equal" and "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." In other words, there is a higher law than any human law, and government must obey it. Our Founders were very well educated men for the most part, at a time when the general public was satisfied with a few years of elementary education, BTW.

    That all began to change in the mid-1800s, with the coming of the socialist revolution, which swept the world. Not necessarily an explicit endorsement of "socialism" itself, just endorsement of things socialist. By the early 1900s, socialism was well entrenched in the world's intellectual leadership, and one of its achievements was to create socialized school systems, which taught that the solution to any problem is more government. Higher Law was laughed at - they said our rights to our lives, freedom and property come from the government, and can be altered or abolished as politicians see fit. Very clever, indeed!

    Fast forward to today, where this belief is almost universal. Schools and colleges have been teaching an undying faith in government for a very long time, and little or nothing about the system of liberty envisioned by our Founders, and our leaders in Government are the students who were taught this. After the second or third generation of future teachers has been raised this way, there are few left in the school system who know otherwise. Small wonder that some would like vey much to abolish our Constitution - it's contrary to what they were taught in school! :

  4. #104
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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    I pulled my money out of the market and put it into govt. bonds. The market seems real nervous and bi-polar. More nervous than usual.

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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    I read a most interesting article recently that discussed this very topic. It started out by explaining what the intent of our Founders was in writing the Declaration of Independence, particularly the line "all men are created equal" and "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." In other words, there is a higher law than any human law, and government must obey it. Our Founders were very well educated men for the most part, at a time when the general public was satisfied with a few years of elementary education, BTW.

    That all began to change in the mid-1800s, with the coming of the socialist revolution, which swept the world. Not necessarily an explicit endorsement of "socialism" itself, just endorsement of things socialist. By the early 1900s, socialism was well entrenched in the world's intellectual leadership, and one of its achievements was to create socialized school systems, which taught that the solution to any problem is more government. Higher Law was laughed at - they said our rights to our lives, freedom and property come from the government, and can be altered or abolished as politicians see fit. Very clever, indeed!

    Fast forward to today, where this belief is almost universal. Schools and colleges have been teaching an undying faith in government for a very long time, and little or nothing about the system of liberty envisioned by our Founders, and our leaders in Government are the students who were taught this. After the second or third generation of future teachers has been raised this way, there are few left in the school system who know otherwise. Small wonder that some would like vey much to abolish our Constitution - it's contrary to what they were taught in school! :
    To say nothing of the fact that the constitution was constituted in order to limit the power of government and the left wants laissez faire government. I went to college in the 1960's. I can't recall ever hearing a political comment from a professor the whole time - even in the required freshman civics class. Perhaps I just stumbled on to a rare non partisan school but I can't recall any friends at other schools encountering politics in the classroom either. We seemed to get the subjects taught on subject without any political coloration.

    I'm not sure when that changed but I suspect it was in the late 80's or early 90's when we started seeing society break into two warring political camps. It isn't hard to understand how college faculties leaned left. They live in a theoretical world fairly immune from reality and consequences. The socialist teachings are appealing. Impractical but appealing. As you said, it destroys motivation and motivation is what drives success and progress.

    I'm old enough now that whatever society does isn't going to impact me personally. I'm not likely to live long enough to see any real change. So I view myself as more of a bystander - an observer - but I still care about the country and it saddens me to see it slowly taken apart. Ah well. I think I'll go to bed. Good night.

  6. #106
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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    [QUOTE=fmw;1063588524]To say nothing of the fact that the constitution was constituted in order to limit the power of government and the left wants laissez faire government. I went to college in the 1960's. I can't recall ever hearing a political comment from a professor the whole time - even in the required freshman civics class. Perhaps I just stumbled on to a rare non partisan school but I can't recall any friends at other schools encountering politics in the classroom either. We seemed to get the subjects taught on subject without any political coloration.

    I'm not sure when that changed but I suspect it was in the late 80's or early 90's when we started seeing society break into two warring political camps. It isn't hard to understand how college faculties leaned left. They live in a theoretical world fairly immune from reality and consequences. The socialist teachings are appealing. Impractical but appealing. As you said, it destroys motivation and motivation is what drives success and progress.

    I'm old enough now that whatever society does isn't going to impact me personally. I'm not likely to live long enough to see any real change. So I view myself as more of a bystander - an observer - but I still care about the country and it saddens me to see it slowly taken apart. Ah well. I think I'll go to bed. Good night.[/QUOT

    Be well.

  7. #107
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    Re: U.S. economy bounces back sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Means nothing...wait for the final revision (then few will pay attention).

    They dropped Q1 from +0.1% initially all the way down to -2.1% in th final revision...clearly (IMO) they are either incompetent and/or being influenced.
    What really should matter is how liberals get excited over the new normal believing that coming off a bad recession that 4% economic growth, or an average of 1.9% for the fiscal year, is good and to be celebrated. Liberals seem to have very low expectations so the new normal of low economic growth, high unemployment/under employment/discouraged workers, 7 trillion added to the debt in 6 years. Rather scary that social issues trump economic issues in the liberal world and they continue to support the incompetent in the WH.

  8. #108
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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    I read a most interesting article recently that discussed this very topic. It started out by explaining what the intent of our Founders was in writing the Declaration of Independence, particularly the line "all men are created equal" and "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." In other words, there is a higher law than any human law.....
    Not quite. They believed that humans have inherent rights, and that government ought to be restrained -- radical ideas in their time.

    However, we should note that they also did not have anything resembling modern corporations as we do now. It would not have occurred to them that government would need to step in to restrain potential abuses by monopolies and multinational corporations. International finance, credit cards, mortgages, derivatives, trading financial products... all unimaginable to them.


    That all began to change in the mid-1800s, with the coming of the socialist revolution, which swept the world....
    "Socialism" does not mesh with the idea of limited government, but it is NOT incompatible with the idea of inherent rights. In fact, it's fairly easy to construct a socialist ideology based on protecting individuals, and treating them equally under the law.


    By the early 1900s, socialism was well entrenched in the world's intellectual leadership, and one of its achievements was to create socialized school systems, which taught that the solution to any problem is more government.
    Just to be clear, are you really implying that public schools are a bad thing, because they are "socialist?"


    Higher Law was laughed at - they said our rights to our lives, freedom and property come from the government, and can be altered or abolished as politicians see fit. Very clever, indeed!
    Not really. The real socialists (e.g. Marx, Engels) made no such claims. They were much more concerned with abuses by capitalist entities, and routinely viewed existing governments as servicing capitalist interests. (Marx didn't even articulate a post-revolutionary government, he only focused on the revolution itself.) Post-Marxian leaders like Lenin, Stalin or Mao viewed government as the best way to manage and distribute the means of production.

    There is also the pesky problem that, well, rights probably aren't actually inherent. No one hands you a guarantee of rights when you're born. There is no uniform agreement on what rights are truly inherent, and no way to prove whether a particular right is or is not inherent. E.g. if the Christian deity bestowed freedom of religion and freedom of expression upon humanity, then why was that unrecognized for millennia prior to the ratification of the US Constitution? Why did this deity allow flagrant abuses of human rights for centuries, including deprivation of due process, and the routine use of torture to extract confessions? How does the concept of a warrant to search a home fit into an inherent right? Why were slaves excluded from all rights, until the US fought itself brutally over the matter? When did this deity deign to tell us that a "right to privacy" existed, and by what means? There certainly aren't any passages in the Jewish and Christian canons which outline an explicit list of inherent rights, so how do we know what's on the list? And of course, why would someone who is not Christian, or not religious, be bound by Christian concepts about rights? (We should note, by the way, that many secularists adhere to the concept of rights just as strongly as any religious individual.)

    I.e. claiming that rights are "inherent" doesn't prove that is actually the case. Even invoking a religious basis doesn't actually justify any degree of certainty.


    Small wonder that some would like vey much to abolish our Constitution - it's contrary to what they were taught in school! :
    Actually, almost no one in the US wants to abolish the Constitution. Few want to alter it. Almost every political player in every political position in the US invokes a Constitutional basis for their actions. Thanks for the straw man, though.

  9. #109
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    Re: US GDP Grows 4% in Q2, Beating Expectations

    The national economy's numbers are meaningless in the face of excessive off-the-radar unemployment and widespread financial under-employment.

    For scores of millions still suffering in the wake of the Great Recession, their personal economic numbers remain very dismal.

    For our nation's economic numbers to be meaningful they have to be compared to our nation's citizens' economic numbers.

    The great disparity in this comparison illustrates that citizen well-being is not necessarily tied to corporate well-being in an age of rampant out-sourcing and wage-slave foreign labor exploitation.
    You don't trust Trump? Well, there's only one way to leverage him to do what's economically right for us all: Powerful American Political Alliance. Got courage?! .. and a mere $5.00?

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    Re: U.S. economy bounces back sharply

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What really should matter is how liberals get excited over the new normal believing that coming off a bad recession that 4% economic growth, or an average of 1.9% for the fiscal year, is good and to be celebrated. Liberals seem to have very low expectations so the new normal of low economic growth, high unemployment/under employment/discouraged workers, 7 trillion added to the debt in 6 years. Rather scary that social issues trump economic issues in the liberal world and they continue to support the incompetent in the WH.
    What scares me is the hard core Keynesians (like Yellen and Krugman) are 'all in' when it comes to spending.
    Many people question their own logic when the results disappoint enough...not with the hard core Keynesians, they believe that the problem is not enough money is being thrown at the problem and not fast enough.
    Just like in Japan, I assume the Fed will probably just keep spending no matter how bad the economy gets. And if QE doesn't work, they will invent new ways to stimulate...probably even buying stocks directly (the Japanese central bank has already tried that one).

    The Keynesians who run the western/Japanese economies have gone 'all in'...and they probably won't stop until the economy gets healthy and self-sufficient or it collapses near-completely.

    And the last time they tried anything like this (in the 1930's), the economy never became self sufficient and when they took the government teat away in 1937 it collapsed in a heap (only WW2 saved their bacon).

    My guess is history will DEFINITELY repeat itself...this is going to get VERY ugly before the economy gets healthy and self-sufficient again.

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