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Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

WCH

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0


ZUHRES, Ukraine — Just hours after the Malaysian government reached an agreement with Ukrainian separatists on Sunday over access to the crash site of a Malaysian airliner shot down in rebel territory, the Ukrainian military launched an operation to recapture the debris fields, again stalling international efforts to secure the site.

The heavy fighting threatened to torpedo hopes of a breakthrough and cause yet more delays in collecting evidence and retrieving the remaining bodies from the crash. Ukrainian security officials said they needed control over the site to prevent the pro-Russia separatists from destroying clues to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

By Sunday evening, the Ukrainian advance had blocked a road leading from the provincial capital, Donetsk, to the airplane debris northeast of Shakhtyorsk, but it remained unclear whether government troops were in control of all or part of the approximately 14 square miles of debris fields.

snip


Hummm, just when you think we might positively know who did it??
 
At this point, there has been far to much interference and opportunity to destroy evidence. It seems unlikely that the people/government responsible will be found.
 
At this point, there has been far to much interference and opportunity to destroy evidence. It seems unlikely that the people/government responsible will be found.

Nobody trusts anybody with the evidence, hence the separatists determined control of the crash site all this time.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0


ZUHRES, Ukraine — Just hours after the Malaysian government reached an agreement with Ukrainian separatists on Sunday over access to the crash site of a Malaysian airliner shot down in rebel territory, the Ukrainian military launched an operation to recapture the debris fields, again stalling international efforts to secure the site.

The heavy fighting threatened to torpedo hopes of a breakthrough and cause yet more delays in collecting evidence and retrieving the remaining bodies from the crash. Ukrainian security officials said they needed control over the site to prevent the pro-Russia separatists from destroying clues to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

By Sunday evening, the Ukrainian advance had blocked a road leading from the provincial capital, Donetsk, to the airplane debris northeast of Shakhtyorsk, but it remained unclear whether government troops were in control of all or part of the approximately 14 square miles of debris fields.

snip


Hummm, just when you think we might positively know who did it??

I would say that taking the site is worthless, if not done by the UN. Even so the place is contaminated as crime sites go. I think Putin has won this one too and we should write it up as collateral damage.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0


ZUHRES, Ukraine — Just hours after the Malaysian government reached an agreement with Ukrainian separatists on Sunday over access to the crash site of a Malaysian airliner shot down in rebel territory, the Ukrainian military launched an operation to recapture the debris fields, again stalling international efforts to secure the site.

The heavy fighting threatened to torpedo hopes of a breakthrough and cause yet more delays in collecting evidence and retrieving the remaining bodies from the crash. Ukrainian security officials said they needed control over the site to prevent the pro-Russia separatists from destroying clues to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

By Sunday evening, the Ukrainian advance had blocked a road leading from the provincial capital, Donetsk, to the airplane debris northeast of Shakhtyorsk, but it remained unclear whether government troops were in control of all or part of the approximately 14 square miles of debris fields.

snip


Hummm, just when you think we might positively know who did it??

10 days later, my bet is that the Ukranian government did it with full support from its US and NATO handlers.

They want to make Russia look bad, but it is Russia who has actually provided physical evidence in the way of radar data to the international community.

All the US has to offer is lip service.

Ukraine emulates the US by confiscating and holding the ATC records related to how the flight was handled, who gave it the new routing and altitude assignments.

Except for the geography and players, it reminds me of Operation Northwoods. :roll:
 
I would say that taking the site is worthless, if not done by the UN. Even so the place is contaminated as crime sites go. I think Putin has won this one too and we should write it up as collateral damage.

I completely agree that only a UN dispatch would have left any integrity to the evidence.
 
10 days later, my bet is that the Ukranian government did it with full support from its US and NATO handlers.

They want to make Russia look bad, but it is Russia who has actually provided physical evidence in the way of radar data to the international community.

All the US has to offer is lip service.

Ukraine emulates the US by confiscating and holding the ATC records related to how the flight was handled, who gave it the new routing and altitude assignments.

Except for the geography and players, it reminds me of Operation Northwoods. :roll:

Does anything bad happen in the world without the involvement of the US govt in your world?
 
Nobody trusts anybody with the evidence, hence the separatists determined control of the crash site all this time.

Problem is that it has been mostly the Kiev government that has prevented access to the site.. but the media dont report that much. It always security concerns that have prevented access... security concerns created by the Kiev government continuing the fighting in the area. The Kiev government could have stopped their advanced.. a ceasefire and put the whole burden on the separatists. They did not.. in fact they have gone out of their way to make sure that the pressure on the separatists in the area has increased and moved the front line closer and closer to the crash area.... and hence creating a lack of security for the investigators.
 
Does anything bad happen in the world without the involvement of the US govt in your world?




That's the U.S. government led by Barack Obama, Of course.

Everything bad that happens on this planet can be traced back to that group of people.
 
10 days later, my bet is that the Ukranian government did it with full support from its US and NATO handlers.

They want to make Russia look bad, but it is Russia who has actually provided physical evidence in the way of radar data to the international community.

All the US has to offer is lip service.

Ukraine emulates the US by confiscating and holding the ATC records related to how the flight was handled, who gave it the new routing and altitude assignments.

Except for the geography and players, it reminds me of Operation Northwoods. :roll:

I think your reasoning is completely sound...but I think the rebels probably did it by mistake.

But I think the US/Ukraine leaders are delighted that it happened PLUS the fact that the Ukrainian government apparently did nothing to discourage civilian flights over the war zone strongly suggests they were hoping for the crash to occur so as to hurt the rebels cause.
 
10 days later, my bet is that the Ukranian government did it with full support from its US and NATO handlers.

They want to make Russia look bad, but it is Russia who has actually provided physical evidence in the way of radar data to the international community.

All the US has to offer is lip service.

Ukraine emulates the US by confiscating and holding the ATC records related to how the flight was handled, who gave it the new routing and altitude assignments.

Except for the geography and players, it reminds me of Operation Northwoods. :roll:

Full support of the US and Nato! Poppycock!
 
That's the U.S. government led by Barack Obama, Of course.

Everything bad that happens on this planet can be traced back to that group of people.

And Putin is a saint right? LOL
 
Problem is that it has been mostly the Kiev government that has prevented access to the site.. but the media dont report that much. It always security concerns that have prevented access... security concerns created by the Kiev government continuing the fighting in the area. The Kiev government could have stopped their advanced.. a ceasefire and put the whole burden on the separatists. They did not.. in fact they have gone out of their way to make sure that the pressure on the separatists in the area has increased and moved the front line closer and closer to the crash area.... and hence creating a lack of security for the investigators.

Well that's interesting enough. I did mention several times early on that intentional downing of a civilian aircraft wouldn't advance the interests of the separatists, and would have the opposite effect of injury. As can be seen on this board where half or more have already satisfied themselves that the separatists did it and they are more the scum because of it. However, Kiev would have motive, for the express reason that if it could be blamed on the separatists of course it does injury to their cause, and gives the West leverage on Moscow.
 
Problem is that it has been mostly the Kiev government that has prevented access to the site.. but the media dont report that much. It always security concerns that have prevented access... security concerns created by the Kiev government continuing the fighting in the area. The Kiev government could have stopped their advanced.. a ceasefire and put the whole burden on the separatists. They did not.. in fact they have gone out of their way to make sure that the pressure on the separatists in the area has increased and moved the front line closer and closer to the crash area.... and hence creating a lack of security for the investigators.

The stories about the flight being 300 miles off course while being escorted by the Ukraines only adds to the mystery
 
I think your reasoning is completely sound...but I think the rebels probably did it by mistake.

But I think the US/Ukraine leaders are delighted that it happened PLUS the fact that the Ukrainian government apparently did nothing to discourage civilian flights over the war zone strongly suggests they were hoping for the crash to occur so as to hurt the rebels cause.

Both HD's and your theories are likely possibilities. Although, as a point of curiosity, what causes you to lean toward the separatists having accidentally dropped this plane?
 
Problem is that it has been mostly the Kiev government that has prevented access to the site.. but the media dont report that much. It always security concerns that have prevented access... security concerns created by the Kiev government continuing the fighting in the area. The Kiev government could have stopped their advanced.. a ceasefire and put the whole burden on the separatists. They did not.. in fact they have gone out of their way to make sure that the pressure on the separatists in the area has increased and moved the front line closer and closer to the crash area.... and hence creating a lack of security for the investigators.

The priority of the Kyiev government must be ending the civil war via military victory as soon as possible. They simply cannot afford to delay military operations for the benefit of the investigation. Any slowing down of the offensive simply allows for more heavy equipment, more volunteers and more mercenaries to enter eastern Ukraine from Russia and costs more Ukrainian lives.

The rebels shot the plane down, and it is the rebels who are refusing to allow unarmed investigators into the area.
 
That's the U.S. government led by Barack Obama, Of course.

Everything bad that happens on this planet can be traced back to that group of people.

Probably the CIA. DOUBT they keep Barry in the loop.
 
The priority of the Kyiev government must be ending the civil war via military victory as soon as possible. They simply cannot afford to delay military operations for the benefit of the investigation. Any slowing down of the offensive simply allows for more heavy equipment, more volunteers and more mercenaries to enter eastern Ukraine from Russia and costs more Ukrainian lives.

The rebels shot the plane down, and it is the rebels who are refusing to allow unarmed investigators into the area.

Oh, goodness, and you have that on the word of the State Department. How many times must we be duped before we call bull****? As a point of interest, as I listen to the daily WH briefings as I have done for years, I'm encouraged this time around to hear reporters pushing back hard on Josh and State Department spokeswoman, calling bull**** themselves, and demanding evidence, even bringing up C. Powell's wink wink nod nod at the UN, suggesting we've been their before.
 
Oh, goodness, and you have that on the word of the State Department.

Ok, if you have evidence that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, bring it forth.

Also, it is not the "word alone" of the State Department. Rebel leaders even tweeted of their "victory" after the plane was hit (acknowledging that they fired on a plane, and that a plane was shot down) in the immediate aftermath of the crash. They then deleted their tweets once they saw what exactly they had shot down.
 
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Both HD's and your theories are likely possibilities. Although, as a point of curiosity, what causes you to lean toward the separatists having accidentally dropped this plane?
Ukraine | Gwynne Dyer

Plus, since the rebels have no air assets, why would the Ukrainian forces have AA missiles in the area.

Also, if Kiev did it and were caught, support for them would probably end. And since they seem to be winning the war then why take such a colossal chance?


I am not saying they did not do it - I don't know. But logic tells me that the rebels did it by mistake and that Kiev couldn't be happier (especially considering no Ukrainian's were onboard MH17).

But I could be wrong.
 
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The priority of the Kyiev government must be ending the civil war via military victory as soon as possible. They simply cannot afford to delay military operations for the benefit of the investigation. Any slowing down of the offensive simply allows for more heavy equipment, more volunteers and more mercenaries to enter eastern Ukraine from Russia and costs more Ukrainian lives.

The rebels shot the plane down, and it is the rebels who are refusing to allow unarmed investigators into the area.

Horse**** from start to finish. IF they wanted to stop the flow of weapons then they in no way would go after the crash area or the 2 cities that the rebels control. They should go after the border area.
 
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