Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

Thoreau72 · Jul 28, 2014

WCH said:
The stories about the flight being 300 miles off course while being escorted by the Ukraines only adds to the mystery

Exactly.

And it is oh-so-telling that the Ukraine government refuses to release for international scrutiny the radar and voice records from ATC. It will not say who and why gave MH17 different routing to what it had filed, and it will not say why the aircraft was descended down to the next lower flight level. The pilot did not request a lower altitude as FL350 is the optimum altitude for such a flight.

If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding that? If the records would support their chosen position, why are they refusing to release the records?

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Henry David said:
The pilot did not request a lower altitude as FL350 is the optimum altitude for such a flight.

Please tell us why FL350 is optimum HD. And how you know the pilot didn't request it if the tapes haven't been released.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
Please tell us why FL350 is optimum HD. And how you know the pilot didn't request it if the tapes haven't been released.

The flight plan requested FL350, but was denied.

It also emerged that flight MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft above Ukrainian territory. On entering Ukrainian airspace, however, the plane's pilots were instructed to fly at 33,000ft by the local air traffic control due to other traffic. Malaysia Airlines said the pilots had to follow the lead of the local authorities.

In a statement here, MAS explained that MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”. - See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...17-to-fly-lower-mas-says#sthash.aiQSgDJj.dpuf

Pilots' group president says MH17 shot down after attempt to avoid storms | World news | The Observer

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
The flight plan requested FL350, but was denied.

It also emerged that flight MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft above Ukrainian territory. On entering Ukrainian airspace, however, the plane's pilots were instructed to fly at 33,000ft by the local air traffic control due to other traffic. Malaysia Airlines said the pilots had to follow the lead of the local authorities.

In a statement here, MAS explained that MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”. - See more at: Ukraine air traffic controllers instructed MH17 to fly lower, MAS says | Malaysia | The Malay Mail Online

Pilots' group president says MH17 shot down after attempt to avoid storms | World news | The Observer

No ATC tapes those are just claims, I thought you were all about certainties.
I will wait for HD to not answer me though.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
No ATC tapes those are just claims, I thought you were all about certainties.
I will wait for HD to not answer me though.

This is from a press conference, in which Malaysian airlines revealed their flight plan that they would have had prior, and wouldn't need Ukrainian ATC communications to know, think about that for a minute.

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
This is from a press conference, in which Malaysian airlines revealed their flight plan that they would have had prior, and wouldn't need Ukrainian ATC communications to know, think about that for a minute.

And there were press conferences saying it was a missile.

A flight plan altitude being changed when filed is not the same as an altitude being changed in flight, The article claims both. So was the actual change at the request of the pilots or from ATC?
We haven't had a full investigation we don't know.

If CTers have a logical theory and evidence why don't they put it forward?

Still doesn't explain HD claims about FL350 being the optimal altitude for such a flight. And yes I read the article it doesn't say it WAS the optimal altitude for such a flight.
HD on top of that is inferring the difference between FL350 and FL350 is significant somehow but of course he doesn't explain why or how.

apdst · Jul 28, 2014

Lord of Planar said:
LOL...

What if it's a forgery?

The satellite tracking data on the missile isn't a forgery. The rebels destroying evidence is true. There's no evidence that points to anyone but the rebels and the Russians.

apdst · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
Investigators are being frustrated from reaching the crash site due to fighting between Ukraine and the separatists. Disinformation, rumors, claims and allegations, truths and half truths are emanating all around. There's motive for sabotage and intrigue, all parties involved (that's ALL apdst) are capable of deceit, so by any measure, for those wishing to be objective, dogmatic conclusion isn't yet possible.

When anything more than anti-West conspiracy theories come to light, you be sure and let us know. m'kay?

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
And there were press conferences saying it was a missile.

A flight plan altitude being changed when filed is not the same as an altitude being changed in flight, The article claims both. So was the actual change at the request of the pilots or from ATC?
We haven't had a full investigation we don't know.

If CTers have a logical theory and evidence why don't they put it forward?

Still doesn't explain HD claims about FL350 being the optimal altitude for such a flight. And yes I read the article it doesn't say it WAS the optimal altitude for such a flight.
HD on top of that is inferring the difference between FL350 and FL350 is significant somehow but of course he doesn't explain why or how.

The link I posted from the Malaysian airline says FL350 is the optimum altitude. Malaysian airlines isn't making claims as to blame, this is just data.

What are CTers?

The difference between FL350 and FL330 is 2,000 feet.

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
The link I posted from the Malaysian airline says FL350 is the optimum altitude. Malaysian airlines isn't making claims as to blame, this is just data.

Try rereading that isn't what it said. And that doesn't mean that is the optimal altitude for every similar flight. (HD's Claim)

MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”.

They are referring to that specific flight not to that "type" of flight as HD claimed and close to is not what HD or you claimed.

What are CTers?

Conspiracy theorists

The difference between FL350 and FL330 is 2,000 feet.

Yes I know (though I'm not sure HD does) I am waiting for HD or you to explain how that 2000' is significant.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
When anything more than anti-West conspiracy theories come to light, you be sure and let us know. m'kay?

I'll wait until investigations are complete before mouthing conclusions, something you should be doing to.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
Try rereading that isn't what it said. And that doesn't mean that is the optimal altitude for every similar flight. (HD's Claim)

They are referring to that specific flight not to that "type" of flight as HD claimed and close to is not what HD or you claimed.

Conspiracy theorists

Yes I know (though I'm not sure HD does) I am waiting for HD or you to explain how that 2000' is significant.

I didn't claim it was the optimum altitude for all flights. I said Malaysian airlines said it was the optimum for the flight that crashed. Nothing Malaysia airlines has said btw, is a claim of blame.

Conspiracy theorists, ah yes, they're all over this board. They're the ones who seem to KNOW who and what brought down MH17.

apdst · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
I'll wait until investigations are complete before mouthing conclusions, something you should be doing to.

The evidence is already too overwhelming to ignore.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
The evidence is already too overwhelming to ignore.

You're accepting claims as evidence. You don't understand process do you?

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
I didn't claim it was the optimum altitude for all flights. I said Malaysian airlines said it was the optimum for the flight that crashed. Nothing Malaysia airlines has said btw, is a claim of blame.

Only they didn't say that
Here it is again

MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”.

Read the bolded.

Conspiracy theorists, ah yes, they're all over this board. They're the ones who seem to KNOW who and what brought down MH17.

No they are the ones who ignore facts, logic and evidence then stay silly things. Such as those that state unequivocally that FL350 was the optimum altitude based on a news article that doesn't actually say that.
Or imply that a change from FL350 to FL330 somehow is proof of some vast conspiracy usually involving the USA. But of course they never explain why or how that 2000' is so important.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
Only they didn't say that
Here it is again

Read the bolded.

No they are the ones who ignore facts, logic and evidence then stay silly things. Such as those that state unequivocally that FL350 was the optimum altitude based on a news article that doesn't actually say that.
Or imply that a change from FL350 to FL330 somehow is proof of some vast conspiracy usually involving the USA. But of course they never explain why or how that 2000' is so important.

The denied request of FL350 is no evidence of ant conspiracy. It's just a piece of a puzzle far from complete. The conspiracy theorists in this story are the ones claiming to know what exactly happened, quite pre-maturely.

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
The denied request of FL350 is no evidence of ant conspiracy. It's just a piece of a puzzle far from complete. The conspiracy theorists in this story are the ones claiming to know what exactly happened, quite pre-maturely.

And that is who I was responding to when you interrupted with false statements about FL350 being the optimum altitude.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
And that is who I was responding to when you interrupted with false statements about FL350 being the optimum altitude.

If you haven't claimed to KNOW, as apdst has, what happened to MH17, then your a smart man.

Quag · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
If you haven't claimed to KNOW, as apdst has, what happened to MH17, then your a smart man.

I do know it crashed.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

Quag said:
I do know it crashed.

Lol, indeed, we do know that.

Lord of Planar · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
The satellite tracking data on the missile isn't a forgery. The rebels destroying evidence is true. There's no evidence that points to anyone but the rebels and the Russians.

There has been no official release of that data that I know of.

Link please.

apdst · Jul 28, 2014

Montecresto said:
You're accepting claims as evidence. You don't understand process do you?

You're ignoring the evidence presented so far.

Lord of Planar · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
The evidence is already too overwhelming to ignore.

What evidence.

All we have seen so far is hear-say.

Link please.

Lord of Planar · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
You're ignoring the evidence presented so far.

Have a link other than hear-say?

By all means. Please present it. It appears I'm not the only open minded person who hasn't seen it.

Montecresto · Jul 28, 2014

apdst said:
You're ignoring the evidence presented so far.

No evidence has been presented, you haven't seen any, you've heard Obama make claims. Sense when do you listen to anything he claims, lol.