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Thread: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    The priority of the Kyiev government must be ending the civil war via military victory as soon as possible. They simply cannot afford to delay military operations for the benefit of the investigation. Any slowing down of the offensive simply allows for more heavy equipment, more volunteers and more mercenaries to enter eastern Ukraine from Russia and costs more Ukrainian lives.

    The rebels shot the plane down, and it is the rebels who are refusing to allow unarmed investigators into the area.
    Oh, goodness, and you have that on the word of the State Department. How many times must we be duped before we call bull****? As a point of interest, as I listen to the daily WH briefings as I have done for years, I'm encouraged this time around to hear reporters pushing back hard on Josh and State Department spokeswoman, calling bull**** themselves, and demanding evidence, even bringing up C. Powell's wink wink nod nod at the UN, suggesting we've been their before.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    It's the old plausible deniability thing.
    Yeah...We watched "Independence Day" yesterday.
    32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    Matt. 10:32-33

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh, goodness, and you have that on the word of the State Department.
    Ok, if you have evidence that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, bring it forth.

    Also, it is not the "word alone" of the State Department. Rebel leaders even tweeted of their "victory" after the plane was hit (acknowledging that they fired on a plane, and that a plane was shot down) in the immediate aftermath of the crash. They then deleted their tweets once they saw what exactly they had shot down.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 07-28-14 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Both HD's and your theories are likely possibilities. Although, as a point of curiosity, what causes you to lean toward the separatists having accidentally dropped this plane?
    Ukraine | Gwynne Dyer

    Plus, since the rebels have no air assets, why would the Ukrainian forces have AA missiles in the area.

    Also, if Kiev did it and were caught, support for them would probably end. And since they seem to be winning the war then why take such a colossal chance?


    I am not saying they did not do it - I don't know. But logic tells me that the rebels did it by mistake and that Kiev couldn't be happier (especially considering no Ukrainian's were onboard MH17).

    But I could be wrong.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-28-14 at 01:03 PM.

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    The priority of the Kyiev government must be ending the civil war via military victory as soon as possible. They simply cannot afford to delay military operations for the benefit of the investigation. Any slowing down of the offensive simply allows for more heavy equipment, more volunteers and more mercenaries to enter eastern Ukraine from Russia and costs more Ukrainian lives.

    The rebels shot the plane down, and it is the rebels who are refusing to allow unarmed investigators into the area.
    Horse**** from start to finish. IF they wanted to stop the flow of weapons then they in no way would go after the crash area or the 2 cities that the rebels control. They should go after the border area.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    The stories about the flight being 300 miles off course while being escorted by the Ukraines only adds to the mystery
    It was 200 and that can be weather related, but since we lack the information on this.. either because it is secret, or that the media are too freaking lazy to find such things out.... it is certainly causing issues.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Ukraine | Gwynne Dyer

    Plus, since the rebels have no air assets, why would the Ukrainian forces have AA missiles in he area.
    Well that is only part of it..

    Also, if Kiev did it and were caught, support for them would probably end. And since they seem to be winning the war so why take such a colossal chance?
    Well one of the theories is that there were Kiev fighters/aircraft near the Malaysian plane and the inexperienced rebels fired at these Kiev planes but missed.

    I am not saying they did not do it - I don't know. But logic tells me that the rebels did it by mistake and that Kiev couldn't be happier (especially considering no Ukrainian's were inboard MH17).
    Well then explain why it is Kiev that is preventing an investigation? It is their aggression that is making it impossible for the international investigators to get to the site.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Horse**** from start to finish. IF they wanted to stop the flow of weapons then they in no way would go after the crash area or the 2 cities that the rebels control. They should go after the border area.
    The Ukrainians want very much to stop the flow of men and increasingly heavier weapons from Russia.

    Ukrainian forces have taken back control over many border crossings that were siezed by rebels. They have been prevented from regaining control over all portions of the border because of the remoteness of some border areas, limited Ukranianian capabilities, other tactical considerations, and Russian interference (heavy shelling from the Russian side in support of rebels near the border).

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is their aggression that is making it impossible for the international investigators to get to the site.
    They are seeking to save Ukrainian lives by not delaying or altering military operations. Ukrainian lives (and not already deceased individuals) must be the priority of the Ukrianian government.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 07-28-14 at 01:09 PM.

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    The Ukrainians want very much to stop the flow of men and increasingly heavier weapons from Russia.

    Ukrainian forces have taken back control over many border crossings that were siezed by rebels. They have been prevented from regaining control over all portions of the border because of the remoteness of some border areas, limited Ukranianian capabilities, other tactical considerations, and Russian interference (heavy shelling from the Russian side in support of rebels near the border).
    All irrelevant to the crash site. It is very far away from the border and has no strategic value to preventing arms. So again, why are they attacking and hence preventing an investigation that would win them a major propaganda victory against the rebels?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    All irrelevant to the crash site. It is very far away from the border and has no strategic value to preventing arms. So again, why are they attacking and hence preventing an investigation that would win them a major propaganda victory against the rebels?
    The area is relevent because Ukraine is seeking to ecircle rebel forces holding population major population centers. Thier strategy is two fold:
    -regain control of border areas when possible
    -isolate rebels in the interior

    The priority for the Ukrainian government must be Ukrainian lives. As a result, considerations about the crash site and persons already deceased whom they did not harm, come second.

    I just dont think it is fair to expect the Ukrainians to spend Ukrainian lives so investigators can have easier access to the site.

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