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US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’ [W:326]

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

HA! I knew you'd do the "they all do it" bit.
No, this guy is far and away the worst.
And the thing is, being the absolute balls-out ideologue that he is, he believes it's just a necessary tool in his arsenal.
You might even say he's a soci...opath (fooled ya, you thought I was gonna say socialist ... relax, yeah, he's both)

Unfortunately yeah, they do all do it and that's because partisans, much as yourself, allow their presidents to get away with it, no, cover it up, justify it, make excuses for it. A republican president once said that if the president does it, it's not illegal. We should want ALL presidents held accountable. Unfortunately though, the partisan left only thinks about that when there's a republican in the White House. Kind of like you only think about it when a democrat is in the White House.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

It's a sign of Mr. Obama's fecklessness that the U.S. has sat by and watched as this rump jihadist state cropped up in part of Iraq. Obama has encouraged this development by his ineffectual policies, just as his coolness toward Israel and warmth toward HAMAS's supporters encouraged Gaza to start the current hostilities. Obama is very cozy with both the Islamist government of Turkey and the government of Qatar, where the U.S. has important military bases.

His past coziness with anti-Semites here is also interesting. Of course I don't suggest Jeremiah Wright was one of these. Just from attending his sermons for twenty years, how could Mr. Obama possibly have known Wright was fast friends with the anti-Semitic Louis Farrakhan--so much so that the two once travelled to Libya together to meet Moammar Khaddafi?

One of our so-called journalists might ask Mr. Obama if he's still close to his friend Rashid Khalidi, the former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and the PLO. In Chicago, the Obamas and Khalidis used to have dinner together and babysit each other's kids. When last heard from, Mr. and Mrs. Khalidi were trying to organize another "peace flotilla," with the support of various other leftists and the government of Turkey, to run Israel's blockade and bring supplies (of God knows what description) to the HAMAS government of Gaza. In an earlier attempt to do this, the peaceful types in the flotilla engaged in a deadly attack on Israeli forces who tried to inspect one of the ships.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Unfortunately yeah, they do all do it and that's because partisans, much as yourself, allow their presidents to get away with it, no, cover it up, justify it, make excuses for it. A republican president once said that if the president does it, it's not illegal. We should want ALL presidents held accountable. Unfortunately though, the partisan left only thinks about that when there's a republican in the White House. Kind of like you only think about it when a democrat is in the White House.
I think you may be coming around a bit.
In this case it really comes down to a matter of degree.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

It's a sign of Mr. Obama's fecklessness that the U.S. has sat by and watched as this rump jihadist state cropped up in part of Iraq. Obama has encouraged this development by his ineffectual policies, just as his coolness toward Israel and warmth toward HAMAS's supporters encouraged Gaza to start the current hostilities. Obama is very cozy with both the Islamist government of Turkey and the government of Qatar, where the U.S. has important military bases.

His past coziness with anti-Semites here is also interesting. Of course I don't suggest Jeremiah Wright was one of these. Just from attending his sermons for twenty years, how could Mr. Obama possibly have known Wright was fast friends with the anti-Semitic Louis Farrakhan--so much so that the two once travelled to Libya together to meet Moammar Khaddafi?

One of our so-called journalists might ask Mr. Obama if he's still close to his friend Rashid Khalidi, the former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and the PLO. In Chicago, the Obamas and Khalidis used to have dinner together and babysit each other's kids. When last heard from, Mr. and Mrs. Khalidi were trying to organize another "peace flotilla," with the support of various other leftists and the government of Turkey, to run Israel's blockade and bring supplies (of God knows what description) to the HAMAS government of Gaza. In an earlier attempt to do this, the peaceful types in the flotilla engaged in a deadly attack on Israeli forces who tried to inspect one of the ships.

It's amazing that anyone could have been elected with his background.
There are reasons for it ... for discussion in a different thread.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

It's a sign of Mr. Obama's fecklessness that the U.S. has sat by and watched as this rump jihadist state cropped up in part of Iraq. Obama has encouraged this development by his ineffectual policies, just as his coolness toward Israel and warmth toward HAMAS's supporters encouraged Gaza to start the current hostilities. Obama is very cozy with both the Islamist government of Turkey and the government of Qatar, where the U.S. has important military bases.

His past coziness with anti-Semites here is also interesting. Of course I don't suggest Jeremiah Wright was one of these. Just from attending his sermons for twenty years, how could Mr. Obama possibly have known Wright was fast friends with the anti-Semitic Louis Farrakhan--so much so that the two once travelled to Libya together to meet Moammar Khaddafi?

One of our so-called journalists might ask Mr. Obama if he's still close to his friend Rashid Khalidi, the former propagandist for Yasser Arafat and the PLO. In Chicago, the Obamas and Khalidis used to have dinner together and babysit each other's kids. When last heard from, Mr. and Mrs. Khalidi were trying to organize another "peace flotilla," with the support of various other leftists and the government of Turkey, to run Israel's blockade and bring supplies (of God knows what description) to the HAMAS government of Gaza. In an earlier attempt to do this, the peaceful types in the flotilla engaged in a deadly attack on Israeli forces who tried to inspect one of the ships.

Warmth toward Hamas :lamo
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

I think you may be coming around a bit.
In this case it really comes down to a matter of degree.

That wasn't too bad, it took you twelve posts to concede that you're a partisan, normally it takes a partisan twenty.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

U.S. Troops Are Leaving Because Iraq Doesn't Want Them There!
President Obama's speech formally declaring that the last 43,000 U.S. troops will leave Iraq by the end of the year was designed to mask an unpleasant truth: The troops aren't being withdrawn because the U.S. wants them out. They're leaving because the Iraqi government refused to let them stay.

U.S. Troops Are Leaving Because Iraq Doesn't Want Them There - Yochi J. Dreazen - The Atlantic

Apparently not. Obama: Iraq needs help as ISIS threatens to seize more cities - CNN.com

Iraq has been asking for help for at least a year but the Fundraiser-In-Chief didn't want to get involved for political reasons. This will hurt the US, and the West, for years to come.

An opinion piece by Dreazen means nothing.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’



Q: Do you think the U.S., or U.N. forces, should have moved into Baghdad?

Cheney: No.

Q: Why not?

Cheney: Because if we'd gone to Baghdad we would have been all alone. There wouldn't have been anybody else with us. There would have been a U.S. occupation of Iraq. None of the Arab forces that were willing to fight with us in Kuwait were willing to invade Iraq.

Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off: part of it, the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of it -- eastern Iraq -- the Iranians would like to claim, they fought over it for eight years. In the north you've got the Kurds, and if the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey, then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey.

It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq.

The other thing was casualties. Everyone was impressed with the fact we were able to do our job with as few casualties as we had. But for the 146 Americans killed in action, and for their families -- it wasn't a cheap war. And the question for the president, in terms of whether or not we went on to Baghdad, took additional casualties in an effort to get Saddam Hussein, was how many additional dead Americans is Saddam worth?

Our judgment was, not very many, and I think we got it right.

http://archive.redstate.com/stories/war/cheney_warned_of_iraq_quagmire_0
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’



Q: Do you think the U.S., or U.N. forces, should have moved into Baghdad?

Cheney: No.

Q: Why not?

Cheney: Because if we'd gone to Baghdad we would have been all alone. There wouldn't have been anybody else with us. There would have been a U.S. occupation of Iraq. None of the Arab forces that were willing to fight with us in Kuwait were willing to invade Iraq.

Once you got to Iraq and took it over, took down Saddam Hussein's government, then what are you going to put in its place? That's a very volatile part of the world, and if you take down the central government of Iraq, you could very easily end up seeing pieces of Iraq fly off: part of it, the Syrians would like to have to the west, part of it -- eastern Iraq -- the Iranians would like to claim, they fought over it for eight years. In the north you've got the Kurds, and if the Kurds spin loose and join with the Kurds in Turkey, then you threaten the territorial integrity of Turkey.

It's a quagmire if you go that far and try to take over Iraq.

The other thing was casualties. Everyone was impressed with the fact we were able to do our job with as few casualties as we had. But for the 146 Americans killed in action, and for their families -- it wasn't a cheap war. And the question for the president, in terms of whether or not we went on to Baghdad, took additional casualties in an effort to get Saddam Hussein, was how many additional dead Americans is Saddam worth?

Our judgment was, not very many, and I think we got it right.


What applied in 1994 doesn't necessarily hold true 20 years later. This seems desperate.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

What applied in 1994 doesn't necessarily hold true 20 years later. This seems desperate.

well... what 1994 dick cheney said ended up happening when 2003 dick cheney toppled saddam so ... not so desperate.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

What applied in 1994 doesn't necessarily hold true 20 years later. This seems desperate.

Actually it applied perfectly. The only change was American attitude after 9/11 but it didn't change the situation at hand and we are seeing EXACTLY what was foreseen in 94
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Take a good look at the current situation in Iraq and tell us what the USA accomplished there with its huge expenditure of blood and money.

Fill us in.

Old arguments that won't change you mind are useless....I try these days not to have futile conversations with people not willing to have a civil open mind.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Apparently not. Obama: Iraq needs help as ISIS threatens to seize more cities - CNN.com

Iraq has been asking for help for at least a year but the Fundraiser-In-Chief didn't want to get involved for political reasons. This will hurt the US, and the West, for years to come.

An opinion piece by Dreazen means nothing.

Except that that's just one posting of the well known account of Malaki's position. CFR has an extensive paper on it. But here's the thing, lol. This is Bush's quagmire. And Dreazen's opinion is superior to some Internet dude going by Grant.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

What applied in 1994 doesn't necessarily hold true 20 years later. This seems desperate.

What a ****ing pathetic response to getting bitch slapped.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

When the next attack happens here, and Innocent Americans die, that is squarely on Obama....

I don't know how old you are, so perhaps you have good cause to be surprised that Iraq has turned into a chaotic, terrorist training ground.
But back in the day, this was the predicted outcome before the invasion of Iraq.

So at least everyone who was in favor of invading Iraq shoulders some of this.

From shortly after the invasion, here's July 2003 fer ya

In response to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (December 1979-February 1989), US presence in the Arabian Peninsula (December 1990), Gulf War I (January 1991) and the US-led coalition occupation of Iraq (March 2003- ___), Islamism grew in strength, size and influence. As a result, virulent and extremist ideologies found greater acceptance, existing Islamist political parties and terrorist groups became more influential, and new Islamist organizations proliferated.

Although US is under severe pressure to withdraw from Saudi Arabia, the US will prefer to remain in the Kingdom because withdrawal after the recent attack will mean defeat in the eyes of its opponents. Nonetheless, US visibility in the Middle East; US assistance to Israel; continued US presence in Iraq will generating wide ranging reactions from the Islamists, both terrorist groups and political parties. Especially after US, Allied, and Coalition intervened in Afghanistan on October 7, 2001, Iraq is an attractive base for Al Qaeda. The Islamists desperately needs a new theater to produce psychologically and physically war-trained Islamists.

US intervention in Iraq has spiked the ideological fuel prolonging the strength, size and life of Islamist political parties and terrorist groups.


Here's a 2006 report. News stories about this report were derided on this board as "for the moonbats"

Declassified Key Judgments of the National Intelligence Estimate "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States" dated April 2006

We assess that the Iraq jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere.
• The Iraq conflict has become the "cause celebre" for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.
• Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement: (1) Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness; (2) the Iraq "jihad;" (3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims--all of which jihadists exploit.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archives/11607-notion-americas-involvement-iraq-creating-terrorists.html#post328463


Testimony of Director of Central Intelligence Porter J. Goss Before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
16 February 2005

Islamic extremists are exploiting the Iraqi conflict to recruit new anti-US jihadists.
These jihadists who survive will leave Iraq experienced in and focused on acts of urban terrorism. They represent a potential pool of contacts to build transnational terrorist cells, groups, and networks in Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/2020/2020.pdf

Iraq and other possible conflicts in the future could provide recruitment, training grounds, technical skills and language proficiency for a new class of terrorists who are “professionalized” and for whom political violence becomes an end in itself.

'New militant threat' from Iraq
The insurgency in Iraq is creating a new type of Islamic militant who could go on to destabilise other countries, a leaked CIA report says.

The classified document says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of skills, from car bombings and assassinations to co-ordinated attacks.

It says these skills may make them more dangerous than fighters from Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s.

And the threat may grow when the Iraq insurgency ends and fighters disperse.

The broad conclusions of the report have been confirmed by an unnamed CIA official and are said to have been widely circulated in the intelligence community.

Iraq May Be Prime Place for Training of Militants, C.I.A. Report Concludes
A new classified assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency says Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat.

They said the assessment had argued that Iraq, since the American invasion of 2003, had in many ways assumed the role played by Afghanistan during the rise of Al Qaeda during the 1980's and 1990's, as a magnet and a proving ground for Islamic extremists from Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

Iraq a site to train terrorists, CIA says
The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, officials said yesterday.

Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.

The May report, which has been widely circulated in the intelligence community, also cites a potential threat to the United States.

Although the Afghan war against the Soviets was largely fought on a rural battlefield, the CIA report said, Iraq is providing extremists with more comprehensive skills including training in operations devised for populated urban areas.

Quite a number of the folks crossing Iraq's borders to engage the US were not on any terrorist watchlist nor were they previously associated with terrorism. The folks say they were radicalised by the invasion of Iraq. But, what do they know about their own motivations anyway?
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Dismissive of the Atlantic while posting SteynOnline!! :lamo:lamo

Where was I dismissive of the Atlantic? It was the opinion piece which obviously meant little, not the publication.
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

I wonder how many neocons take a look at the god-awful mess in Iraq and think: Maybe, just maybe, we'd be a whole lot better off right now if we had stayed far away from that place.
Any ideas on that?
If they are like many humans, they may think, "If only they would have let us do EVERYTHING our way..."
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Actually, no. The circumstances were quite different. History does not stand still.
Even though the relevant factors changed, perhaps they had not changed enough to provide for a significantly different outcome.
It still turned into a quagmire posthaste.
:shrug:
 
Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

This is one of those frog in slowly boiling water things imho.

When Mosul fell, we suddenly realized that the water was boiling.

The pot wasn't put on the burner in 2012.
ISIS didn't go from nothing to controlling a swath of the ME in two and a half years.

It just ain't so.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_insurgency.htm

In January 2005 Iraqi intelligence service director General Mohamed Abdullah Shahwani said that Iraq's insurgency consited of at least 40,000 hardcore fighters, out of a total of more than 200,000 part-time fighters and volunteers who provide intelligence, logistics and shelter.​
 
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Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

If they are like many humans, they may think, "If only they would have let us do EVERYTHING our way...
"




Hang on just a minute here.

The G.W. Bush mis-administration did do everything in Iraq the way that the neo-con's wanted it done
And if you'll take a look at what's going on in Iraq right now, you'll see how that plan has turned out.

Why don't all of the neo-cons get over there and straighten that god-awful mess out?



They were the ones who wanted it, they got it and they should take care of it.
 
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