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Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis[W:62]

Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
I was referring to the manipulated invasion that is being encouraged and coordinated by the White House and liberal/progressive leaders that is occurring right now. I understand this has been going on for some time.
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I will agree what's happening now is very bad. Pointing to liberal/progressives is irrelevant. The mid 80's amnesty was hugely injurious as well. We have a failed government problem in Washington, and we all need to be about holding every administration accountable. That will require partisans on the left helping the right at this time, and partisans on the right helping the left next time, when a republican president is pulling border shenanigans. But who thinks that will happen. No, the finger pointing will continue and the open border will continue, too!
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
I will agree what's happening now is very bad. Pointing to liberal/progressives is irrelevant. The mid 80's amnesty was hugely injurious as well. We have a failed government problem in Washington, and we all need to be about holding every administration accountable. That will require partisans on the left helping the right at this time, and partisans on the right helping the left next time, when a republican president is pulling border shenanigans. But who thinks that will happen. No, the finger pointing will continue and the open border will continue, too!
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I have no problem holding everyone, including members of my political party, responsible. Any candidate that supports amnesty is done in my book.

The only solution to this situation starts with the employers. The US Chamber of Commerce is a joke; It no longer represents business.

Crushing sanctions must be applied to employers and private citizens who knowingly break the law by hiring illegals. Dry up the income, and the illegals can re-board death trains back to the own countries. Perhaps then they could do something for themselves and correct the terrible situations there.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
I have no problem holding everyone, including members of my political party, responsible. Any candidate that supports amnesty is done in my book.

The only solution to this situation starts with the employers. The US Chamber of Commerce is a joke; It no longer represents business.

Crushing sanctions must be applied to employers and private citizens who knowingly break the law by hiring illegals. Dry up the income, and the illegals can re-board death trains back to the own countries. Perhaps then they could do something for themselves and correct the terrible situations there.
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And behold we're on the same page!!
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

americanwoman said:
What a bunch of bull****. If their countries weren't a couple of ****holes, all those people wouldn't be wanting to leave in record numbers.



Yes, but they don't seem to realize is a difference between those countries. Mexico is right on our border, that does deserve our attention because it effects what enters our country. Colombia is a whole different ballgame and our involvement is not strictly because of drugs or gangs and goes back decades. I'm not saying our foreign policy to Central America is perfect but we can only do so much and their own leaders also need to step up and handle things as well instead of just blaming us. **** just in Guatemala alone in 2012 we gave them $144,633,432!!


How much money does the U.S. give to Guatemala?
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"It's not our fault" seems to be a common refrain among people who won't take responsibility for anything! Then they further insult us by stating that we must "share the blame" for the mess they made of their own country! What does the US get in return from Guatemala, for instance, for the $144 million dollars we give them every year? A bunch of kids for us to babysit, feed, clothe and provide shelter for, not to mention the adults with their hands wide open for the freebies we give them? That seems like a very lopsided tradeoff to me! I wouldn't give them another penny in foreign aid till they get their act together! What are we - their Mommie? Damn!

They're on the way to making us as poor as they are, and maybe that's the plan, and all concerned can have a good hearty laugh at our expense, but we have children and wounded veterans living in poverty here in our own country, and we need to take care of our own first! And I don't want to hear that we don't have money to repair our crumbling infrastructure - that's obviously :bs: since we seem to have money to send to every other country on this planet who asks! Billions to the Ukraine, as an example? WTH? Why? You don't see Russia or China acting as foolishly as we do! :no:

Greetings, Americanwoman. :2wave:
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

polgara said:
"It's not our fault" seems to be a common refrain among people who won't take responsibility for anything! Then they further insult us by stating that we must "share the blame" for the mess they made of their own country! What does the US get in return from Guatemala, for instance, for the $144 million dollars we give them every year? A bunch of kids for us to babysit, feed, clothe and provide shelter for, not to mention the adults with their hands wide open for the freebies we give them? That seems like a very lopsided tradeoff to me! I wouldn't give them another penny in foreign aid till they get their act together! What are we - their Mommie? Damn!

They're on the way to making us as poor as they are, and maybe that's the plan, and all concerned can have a good hearty laugh at our expense, but we have children and wounded veterans living in poverty here in our own country, and we need to take care of our own first! And I don't want to hear that we don't have money to repair our crumbling infrastructure - that's obviously :bs: since we seem to have money to send to every other country on this planet who asks! Billions to the Ukraine, as an example? WTH? Why? You don't see Russia or China acting as foolishly as we do! :no:

Greetings, Americanwoman. :2wave:
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Howdy Polgara! US intrigue in Central America hasn't always provided a leg up!

The Reagan Administration lent logistical, financial and military support to the Contras, based in neighboring Honduras, who waged a guerrilla insurgency in an effort to topple the Sandinista government of Nicaragua (which was headed by Daniel Ortega). This support was funneled through the CIA to the rebels, and continued right through Reagan's period in office. The scorched earth tactics of the Contras were condemned for their brutality by several historians.[46] In 1983, the CIA created a group of "Unilaterally Controlled Latino Assets" (UCLAs), whose task was to "sabotage ports, refineries, boats and bridges, and try to make it look like the contras had done it."[50] In January 1984, these UCLA's carried out the operation for which they would be best known; the mining of several Nicaraguan harbors, which sank several Nicaraguan boats and damaged at least five foreign vessels. This incident led to the ratification of the Boland Amendment by the US Congress, and brought an avalanche of international condemnation down on the United States.[51] The CIA also provided training and arms, as well as funding, directly to the Contras.[52]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_Ronald_Reagan_administration
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Howdy Polgara! US intrigue in Central America hasn't always provided a leg up!

The Reagan Administration lent logistical, financial and military support to the Contras, based in neighboring Honduras, who waged a guerrilla insurgency in an effort to topple the Sandinista government of Nicaragua (which was headed by Daniel Ortega). This support was funneled through the CIA to the rebels, and continued right through Reagan's period in office. The scorched earth tactics of the Contras were condemned for their brutality by several historians.[46] In 1983, the CIA created a group of "Unilaterally Controlled Latino Assets" (UCLAs), whose task was to "sabotage ports, refineries, boats and bridges, and try to make it look like the contras had done it."[50] In January 1984, these UCLA's carried out the operation for which they would be best known; the mining of several Nicaraguan harbors, which sank several Nicaraguan boats and damaged at least five foreign vessels. This incident led to the ratification of the Boland Amendment by the US Congress, and brought an avalanche of international condemnation down on the United States.[51] The CIA also provided training and arms, as well as funding, directly to the Contras.[52]

Foreign policy of the Ronald Reagan administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Crushing the spread of Communism/Socialism in our back yard has not always been pretty, or effectively carried out. One should remember the circumstances in these countries that were in place prior to the take over by these radical regimes. Our efforts to derail their growth did not lead to poverty in those countries. Such realities were already in place.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

j-mac said:
What a couple of Idiots....How about they get control of their own countries, and realize that people are fleeing their socialist countries for freedom...We, can't help them...Send the kids back.
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It is partially our fault. Waves of guns, and cash funding the drug cartels etc. And also NAFTA and our trade policies have destroyed the rural farming communiteis in these countries.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
Crushing the spread of Communism/Socialism in our back yard has not always been pretty, or effectively carried out. One should remember the circumstances in these countries that were in place prior to the take over by these radical regimes. Our efforts to derail their growth did not lead to poverty in those countries. Such realities were already in place.
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Well we fell off the same page soon enough. Destroying an already poor nations infrastructure is not a leg up, and drives it further into poverty. And defending this in a desire to keep the SU out of Central America has failed in two ways, they are there again, with China this time.

In 1983, the CIA created a group of "Unilaterally Controlled Latino Assets" (UCLAs), whose task was to "sabotage ports, refineries, boats and bridges, and try to make it look like the contras had done it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_policy_of_the_Ronald_Reagan_administration


Presidents have used our CIA to bully our way through many places around the world. Stop defending bad behavior at home if you wish credibility in condemning it abroad.
 
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Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Well we fell off the same page soon enough. Destroying an already poor nations infrastructure is not a leg up, and drives it further into poverty. And defending this in a desire to keep the SU out of Central America has failed in two ways, they are there again, with China this time.

In 1983, the CIA created a group of "Unilaterally Controlled Latino Assets" (UCLAs), whose task was to "sabotage ports, refineries, boats and bridges, and try to make it look like the contras had done it.

Foreign policy of the Ronald Reagan administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Presidents have used our CIA to bully our way through many places around the world. Stop defending bad behavior at home if you wish credibility in condemning it abroad.
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That China is there again is the ongoing point. I haven't defended CIA's actions, if fact I've implied it was poorly executed. What I have written is that these countries were impoverished before, do to their cultural/societal standards, and continue to be that way, despite any actions the CIA took. The CIA's actions in the '80's is not to blame for the current conditions in Latin America.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
That China is there again is the ongoing point. I haven't defended CIA's actions, if fact I've implied it was poorly executed. What I have written is that these countries were impoverished before, do to their cultural/societal standards, and continue to be that way, despite any actions the CIA took. The CIA's actions in the '80's is not to blame for the current conditions in Latin America.
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Well I don't know how that could truly be argued either way. But unless one believes the CIA is a rogue agency, it was under Reagan's direction that they were ordered to commit the crime of destroying Honduras infrastructure wishing it to be blamed on the Contras. If Individuals destroyed US property, in an attempt to make it look like their rivals, and were caught, they would be in prison. The CIA is NEVER held accountable, EVER. And finds plenty of cover from apologetic Americans. But the end justifies the means. In an attempt to keep out "evil Russian communists" we export our own evil.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Well I don't know how that could truly be argued either way. But unless one believes the CIA is a rogue agency, it was under Reagan's direction that they were ordered to commit the crime of destroying Honduras infrastructure wishing it to be blamed on the Contras. If Individuals destroyed US property, in an attempt to make it look like their rivals, and were caught, they would be in prison. The CIA is NEVER held accountable, EVER. And finds plenty of cover from apologetic Americans. But the end justifies the means. In an attempt to keep out "evil Russian communists" we export our own evil.
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I've always agreed that the CIA is a rogue agency. They exceeded their mandate from day one of their formation. However, that's no excuse for Central America's current state.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Howdy Polgara! US intrigue in Central America hasn't always provided a leg up!

The Reagan Administration lent logistical, financial and military support to the Contras, based in neighboring Honduras, who waged a guerrilla insurgency in an effort to topple the Sandinista government of Nicaragua (which was headed by Daniel Ortega). This support was funneled through the CIA to the rebels, and continued right through Reagan's period in office. The scorched earth tactics of the Contras were condemned for their brutality by several historians.[46] In 1983, the CIA created a group of "Unilaterally Controlled Latino Assets" (UCLAs), whose task was to "sabotage ports, refineries, boats and bridges, and try to make it look like the contras had done it."[50] In January 1984, these UCLA's carried out the operation for which they would be best known; the mining of several Nicaraguan harbors, which sank several Nicaraguan boats and damaged at least five foreign vessels. This incident led to the ratification of the Boland Amendment by the US Congress, and brought an avalanche of international condemnation down on the United States.[51] The CIA also provided training and arms, as well as funding, directly to the Contras.[52]

Foreign policy of the Ronald Reagan administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Are you saying that we may be paying retribution now for things that have happened in the past? That's possible, I suppose, and Karma does have a way of making sure wrongs are righted, but who does the CIA report to? Am I to believe they are a self-funded rogue group who unilaterally decides which leader needs to be deposed or killed, or which rebels to support, or who gets what money? Or are they just doing what they are told to do by someone higher up? I suspect it may be the latter, because that makes more sense but who is giving the orders, and who are they taking orders from? That's the scary part! :afraid:

Happy Friday to you, Montecresto. :2wave: Hope your day is going great!
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Well I don't know how that could truly be argued either way. But unless one believes the CIA is a rogue agency, it was under Reagan's direction that they were ordered to commit the crime of destroying Honduras infrastructure wishing it to be blamed on the Contras. If Individuals destroyed US property, in an attempt to make it look like their rivals, and were caught, they would be in prison. The CIA is NEVER held accountable, EVER. And finds plenty of cover from apologetic Americans. But the end justifies the means. In an attempt to keep out "evil Russian communists" we export our own evil.
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I guess one can't be on the same page in everything. The world is a dangerous place. In more cases than people want to admit, the end does justify the means. Certainly history has shown cases when the end SHOULD have justified the means.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

clownboy said:
I've always agreed that the CIA is a rogue agency. They exceeded their mandate from day one of their formation. However, that's no excuse for Central America's current state.
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I can somewhat agree with this post.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

polgara said:
Are you saying that we may be paying retribution now for things that have happened in the past? That's possible, I suppose, and Karma does have a way of making sure wrongs are righted, but who does the CIA report to? Am I to believe they are a self-funded rogue group who unilaterally decides which leader needs to be deposed or killed, or which rebels to support, or who gets what money? Or are they just doing what they are told to do by someone higher up? I suspect it may be the latter, because that makes more sense but who is giving the orders, and who are they taking orders from? That's the scary part! :afraid:

Happy Friday to you, Montecresto. :2wave: Hope your day is going great!
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THANKS Polgara, same to you! I hope the CIA is advancing State Department policy, even as I often disagree with that policy. The alternative you point to is even worse.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
I guess one can't be on the same page in everything. The world is a dangerous place. In more cases than people want to admit, the end does justify the means. Certainly history has shown cases when the end SHOULD have justified the means.
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Oh ocean, I don't know buddy. "The world is a dangerous place", I'll agree with you on that!;)
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Montecresto said:
Oh ocean, I don't know buddy. "The world is a dangerous place", I'll agree with you on that!;)
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It seems to me, "You have what I want", and "I won't let you take it" is built into the human DNA. Perhaps that is required in order to perpetuate the species, and has always been the case.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

TheDemSocialist said:
It is partially our fault. Waves of guns, and cash funding the drug cartels etc. And also NAFTA and our trade policies have destroyed the rural farming communiteis in these countries.
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To be fair, NAFTA did not destroy the rural farming communities.. the death squads, mines and so on killed off most of the farmers in the first place.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

j-mac said:
What a couple of Idiots....How about they get control of their own countries, and realize that people are fleeing their socialist countries for freedom...We, can't help them...Send the kids back.
Click to expand...

The only part I can see that the US played in this is blowing their countries to hell and back during the 80's when we were funding civil war and death squads down there. Since then their governments haven't been able to gain strength strong enough to fight off the drug lords that truly run their countries. I'd like to see a unification of the seven countries in central america into a single country with seven states so that the government might be able to afford stemming the strength of those idiot drug lords together.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

PeteEU said:
To be fair, NAFTA did not destroy the rural farming communities.. the death squads, mines and so on killed off most of the farmers in the first place.
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Yes but NAFTA played a part too... mainly seeing how their prominent food source and crop, corn, is highly subsidized in the US causing prices throughout the NAFTA countries to plummet and destroying the crop's profitability for the farmers in Mexico and Central America.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

ocean515 said:
Abject poverty has been an issue in Latin American countries long before the "Drug Lords" came into power. The "blame it on drugs" meme is just an excuse that doesn't hold water.
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Except for the fact that the drug lords are the have's vs the have nots and these particular haves are extremely brutal and use that drug money to expand their brutality.
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

poweRob said:
Except for the fact that the drug lords are the have's vs the have nots and these particular haves are extremely brutal and use that drug money to expand their brutality.
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maybe we should expand the war on terror to include these drug cartels
 
Re: Central American leaders blame U.S. for border crisis

Unitedwestand13 said:
maybe we should expand the war on terror to include these drug cartels
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bahhh... I've had about enough of war. Our proxy wars in the 80's opened the gate for these countries' craphole position they are in.

I can't see war solving anything.
 
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