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Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

Just to be clear, the DC Circuit majority says this:

The text of section 36B is only the starting point of this analysis. That provision is but one piece of a vast, complex statutory scheme, and we must consider it both on its own and in relation to the ACA’s interconnected provisions and overall structure so as to interpret the Act, if possible, “as a symmetrical and coherent scheme.

So there isn't any doubt what the Court's role in this is - to do just as I said. Interpret conflicts consistent with the law as a whole, and consistent with Congressional intent, as they recognize here:

Although both appellants and the government argue that the ACA, read in its totality, evinces clear congressional intent, they dispute what that intent actually is. Appellants argue that if taxpayers can receive credits only for plans enrolled in “through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311 of the [ACA],” then the IRS clearly cannot give credits to taxpayers who purchased insurance on an Exchange established by the federal government. After all, the federal government is not a “State,” see 42 U.S.C. § 18024(d) (defining “State” to “mean[] each of the 50 States and the District of Columbia”), and its authority to establish Exchanges appears in section 1321 rather than section 1311, see id. § 18041(c)(1). The government counters that appellants take a blinkered view of the ACA and that sections 1311 and 1321 of the Act establish complete equivalence between state and federal Exchanges, such that when the federal government establishes an Exchange, it does so standing in the state’s shoes. Furthermore, the government argues, whereas appellants’ construction of section 36B renders other provisions of the ACA absurd, its own view brings coherence to the statute and better promotes the purpose of the Act.

We conclude that appellants have the better of the argument

The two conservatives on the D.C. circuit read the history and determined that Congress INTENDED to deny credits unless the states set up their own exchanges. The other four judges agreed with the underlined and italicized part above. Either way, the legal question is exactly as I stated it.
 
Just to reiterate where this all came from. The subsidies were for state's only. The court interpreted the law correctly. Everything you are doing is blowing smoke and redirecting. Have a great day Sang.

Well whether it is correct or not, if the court's rule on the intent of the law the ACA may stand. The idea of the ACA was to make sure all had access to Health Care coverage. That is the argument many are using FOR the ACA and if done under the right court, that may stand. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't tell you the likelyhood of that or not but I have seen that argument being used and ruled upon in that fashion. The "it isn't a penalty it is a tax" ruling comes to mind on intent.
 
You are just making things up. Where do you get the Federal Exchange was meant for "small states"? The reality is that the 1311 and 1321 distinction was referenced numerous places in the law, and the law as written was meant to coax states to make their own exchanges.

In reality, Secs 1311 and 1321 demonstrate the clear conflict that is contained within ACA. A clear and literal reading of those two sections makes it obvious that there is ambiguity where you claim there is none

To be specific, Sec 1311 states that all states *shall* establish an exchange. No if, and, or buts about it. Sec 1321 directly contradicts Sec 1311 by stating that the Fed govt "shall (directly or through agreement with a not-for-profit entity) establish and operate such Exchange within the State "
 
Just as a point of comparison, the ACA DID intend to use a BIG hammer to get states to expand Medicaid, and said that to get ANY Medicaid money, the states had to agree to expansion. Roberts rewrote that part of ACA and said, well, no, the law as written isn't fair or something, so we'll allow states to elect out of expansion but require the Feds to provide the existing Medicaid money, totally inconsistent with the law as written and Congress' intent. That's the kind of ruling that allows for a slippery slope because Roberts and his allies just amended the ACA to be like they wanted it. Clearly, Congress has the right to determine the scope of Federal programs, and Roberts determined that, no, they don't, and inserted his own preferences in place of the Congress.

South Dakota v Dole established that there is a difference between incentives and coercion, and that coercion would not be allowed. Hanging < 1% of your total federal funding over your head is an incentive, while handing 10% of your total federal funding over your head is coercion.
 
How can congress "overlook" the wording of the statute. Especially when they specifically state the subsidies go to state exchanges. Whey not turn around and state the federal exchange receive the same subsidy?
 
Kill it, tear it up, and reform the former system to include the uninsured in a more equitable manner.

Drunk with power and an insatiable thirst to make the history books, this cast of socialist clowns completely botched this whole thing.

Healthcare quality has taken a step backward, and costs are soaring for millions who struggled already but don't qualify for subsidies. $100 co-pays and $5,000 deductibles aren't doable for most people.

Your idea would cause liberal heads to explode.
 
South Dakota v Dole established that there is a difference between incentives and coercion, and that coercion would not be allowed. Hanging < 1% of your total federal funding over your head is an incentive, while handing 10% of your total federal funding over your head is coercion.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'll not pretend to explore the vast precedence of the courts on the issue, but in that case the spending was highway spending, and to get the highway money, the states had to pass something.....related to the drinking age. That's a different notion than Congress saying, we'll give you $X money for roads, but only if you do this related to your roads. If you don't want to do that with your roads, you get none of the money.

Also, too, there is little doubt Congress could have repealed the existing Medicaid program, and started a new program called "Obamacaid" with the expanded eligibility. And then states could elect to accept any Obamacaid money, or not, their choice. Roberts provided states three choices. No Medicaid money, Medicaid as it existed in 2013 or Obamacaid.

Finally, there are many actual constitutional lawyers who thought Robert's ruling was just out of left field and divorced from precedence, but the larger point is he rewrote a provision of law in a way that was CLEARLY inconsistent with the intent of Congress. And posters on here are arguing that the SC must rewrite another provision of the law to be clearly inconsistent with Congressional intent. That is also a dangerous slope to start sliding down when there is no Constitutional problem with the laws themselves.
 
How can congress "overlook" the wording of the statute. Especially when they specifically state the subsidies go to state exchanges. Whey not turn around and state the federal exchange receive the same subsidy?

Obviously, the drafters made a mistake. This is common. In simple terms the law said to states - Create an Exchange and run it. But if you don't, we'll do it on your behalf and we'll run the "state exchange." In other words, the Feds step into the states' shoes and those exchanges run by the Feds but for each state are the "state exchanges."

And you'll also have to address why Congress would anticipate and provide for federally run exchanges, then purposely prohibit the credits from being offered on the exchanges they anticipated running. Of course they intended for the people going to federally run exchanges to have access to the same credits, in the same amounts, as those on state run exchanges. No one disputed this - not even the states did.
 
Obviously, the drafters made a mistake. This is common. In simple terms the law said to states - Create an Exchange and run it. But if you don't, we'll do it on your behalf and we'll run the "state exchange." In other words, the Feds step into the states' shoes and those exchanges run by the Feds but for each state are the "state exchanges."

And you'll also have to address why Congress would anticipate and provide for federally run exchanges, then purposely prohibit the credits from being offered on the exchanges they anticipated running. Of course they intended for the people going to federally run exchanges to have access to the same credits, in the same amounts, as those on state run exchanges. No one disputed this - not even the states did.

It was done to make the cost of the ACA appear lower. Subsidies for states would come out of states budgets. So on paper the cost for the federal bill would look lower. If they meant for it to happen they should have put it in. This is what happens when a 2000 page behemoth is rushed through congress without being read.
 
It was done to make the cost of the ACA appear lower. Subsidies for states would come out of states budgets. So on paper the cost for the federal bill would look lower. If they meant for it to happen they should have put it in. This is what happens when a 2000 page behemoth is rushed through congress without being read.

If you find ANY estimate of the cost of the ACA, during drafting, or after the bill was passed, it will assume subsidies for residents of ALL 50 states, so you REALLY don't want to use that argument. It's self defeating. Look at CBO estimates. There is no mention in their estimates of the cost of the credits about which states have their own and which are operating on the federally run exchange.
 
No I'm not. Clearly the law intended for the creation of a Federal exchange to act as the portal for residents of states who did not create their own exchanges, for whatever reason (small is just one possible reason). There is no doubt about this - the law provided for a deadline, and if a state didn't notify the Feds that it was going to create an exchange, the Feds would include that state in the Federally run exchange. And there is NOTHING in the law or legislative history that suggests the drafters intended for credits to be available only on state exchanges.

Furthermore, you say the law as written was intended to 'coax' states into creating their own, but there is NO legislative history to that effect. If you think there is, cite it.

You mean history of the Federal government writing laws meant to coax the states into compliance? The examples are legion. Interstate road funds have been used to generations to coerce state compliance any various federal regulations.

Ask yourself this: If the bill was written with the intent you claim, what reason would any state have for setting up their own exchange?

Also, why does the bill repeat the same distinction between 1311 and 1321 exchanges and then leave out 1321 at least twice? Why wouldn't they simply encapsulate federal and state exchanges into 1311 if they wanted them to be essentially the same? THis isn't a matter of people being sloppy, this is a matter of a bill that is crafted to say exactly the opposite of what you claim it says.

You're wrong. The courts are often called to interpret conflicting provisions of a law - they happen with some regularity. So all the court is asked to do here is interpret a conflict and decide how to resolve the conflict, and it's clear from past cases how they do that - look at the law as a whole and decide the conflict consistent with the law as a whole and the intent of Congress when drafting it. You simply cannot point to anything that indicates Congress INTENDED to deny subsidies to states who didn't set up their own exchanges. No one who's being intellectually honest asserts this - the law was INTENDED to make affordable insurance available to people in all 50 states.

I said federal agencies, not courts. The IRS can't change a law because they think it should have said something else. That is what they did with the PPACA.

That's not saying much of anything. Drafting errors or conflicts happen all the time - it's part of the sausage making. The reason we have courts is to resolve those problems.

Assuming it is a drafting error. But then the rationale that it was a drafting error is "Because!"

But even drafting errors are not all excused by the court.

No, democrats INTENDED to make the subsidies available to anyone, whether or not the state established an exchange, which is why the law provided for a Federally run exchange.

No, this is absurdly false. Would you argue that the law allows subsidies for individuals who signed up for insurance directly with an insurance company? The laws says nothing about them getting subsidies. So the Dems clearly didn't intend for everyone to have subsidies available. The Dems intended for a targeted group of individuals to get subsidies... and by the law that groups is comprised of individuals apply through state-built exchanges.


Of course, states could elect to NOT accept any Medicaid money. But to get money, they had to meet Federal guidelines. So their level of participation had to meet Medicaid guidelines. My own state didn't like the Federal Medicaid program, so asked for and got permission to set up an alternative to Medicaid, but they couldn't DEMAND the money without meeting Medicaid guidelines - they asked for a concession, worked with Medicaid, and then were permitted to try an alternative. Same as highway money, and all other sources of funding. Congress says, "Here's some rules, if you abide by them, we give you money." Roberts et al said the Supremes got to set the rules and amended the ACA.

False false and false. Medicaid is a voluntary program and it was not an all or nothing proposition before PPACA tried to make it so.

Your example is not an apples to apples comparison because the PPACA is demanding a state accept more money to expand a program or take nothing. This simply wasn't the way it worked before PPACA.
 
In reality, Secs 1311 and 1321 demonstrate the clear conflict that is contained within ACA. A clear and literal reading of those two sections makes it obvious that there is ambiguity where you claim there is none

To be specific, Sec 1311 states that all states *shall* establish an exchange. No if, and, or buts about it. Sec 1321 directly contradicts Sec 1311 by stating that the Fed govt "shall (directly or through agreement with a not-for-profit entity) establish and operate such Exchange within the State "

Hahahah!! Stop pretending you read the section.

(c) Failure To Establish Exchange or Implement Requirements-

(1) IN GENERAL- If--

(A) a State is not an electing State under subsection (b); or

(B) the Secretary determines, on or before January 1, 2013, that an electing State--​

(i) will not have any required Exchange operational by January 1, 2014; or

(ii) has not taken the actions the Secretary determines necessary to implement--​

(I) the other requirements set forth in the standards under subsection (a); or

(II) the requirements set forth in subtitles A and C and the amendments made by such subtitles;​

the Secretary shall (directly or through agreement with a not-for-profit entity) establish and operate such Exchange within the State and the Secretary shall take such actions as are necessary to implement such other requirements.​

1321 was written clearly to establish a federal exchange in a state when it is determined that a state will not meet it's obligations under 1311. This is not a conflict.
 
You mean history of the Federal government writing laws meant to coax the states into compliance? The examples are legion. Interstate road funds have been used to generations to coerce state compliance any various federal regulations.

Ask yourself this: If the bill was written with the intent you claim, what reason would any state have for setting up their own exchange?

Not ANY law - this law. And the reason states might create their own is self proving with the disaster of the Federal portal - the states that created their own (some of them) had better luck, and the funds to do so were provided by the Feds.

Also, why does the bill repeat the same distinction between 1311 and 1321 exchanges and then leave out 1321 at least twice? Why wouldn't they simply encapsulate federal and state exchanges into 1311 if they wanted them to be essentially the same? THis isn't a matter of people being sloppy, this is a matter of a bill that is crafted to say exactly the opposite of what you claim it says.

What you're ultimately suggesting is the drafters of the ACA INTENDED to deny subsidies to residents of states who didn't create their own exchanges. That is the core question - what was their INTENT. First of all, you can't show anything that indicates this was the intent of the drafters. Furthermore, if that was in fact their intent, the drafters certainly wouldn't have left that intent vague, and accomplished that intent obliquely. It's a HUGE deal that dismantles ACA in recalcitrant states. If Congress intended that result, allow states to dismantle the ACA by just sitting on their hands, they'd have so stated, and in a manner that left NO interpretation.

I said federal agencies, not courts. The IRS can't change a law because they think it should have said something else. That is what they did with the PPACA.

The IRS was empowered by the law to issue regulations to implement the law.

Assuming it is a drafting error. But then the rationale that it was a drafting error is "Because!"

No, that's just not right. The rationale that it was a drafting error is because if Congress intended that result, the rest of the ACA makes no sense. What you're saying is the drafters of the ACA intended to provide the weapons for opponents of ACA to dismantle ACA.

It's an insane interpretation. The drafters anticipated states would be hesitant to accept Medicaid expansion. So, they tied ALL Medicaid money to agreeing to expand Medicaid.

Congress cannot force (send troops?) states to create an exchange and the drafters anticipated some states might elect to just do nothing. So they said, "If YOU don't set up the exchange, WE will do it on your behalf. You WILL have an exchange one way or the other."

But even drafting errors are not all excused by the court.

They're excused when the intent is clear, and interpreting a drafting error in some manner is inconsistent with the rest of the statute and that intent.

No, this is absurdly false. Would you argue that the law allows subsidies for individuals who signed up for insurance directly with an insurance company? The laws says nothing about them getting subsidies. So the Dems clearly didn't intend for everyone to have subsidies available. The Dems intended for a targeted group of individuals to get subsidies... and by the law that groups is comprised of individuals apply through state-built exchanges.

Now you're behaving like the court. Obviously I meant that the drafters of ACA intended for those signing up on state AND Federal exchanges to be eligible for subsidies. Heck, no one disputes this. There is nothing anywhere to suggest any provision or amendment was intended to limit subsidies to ONLY those on state run exchanges.

False false and false. Medicaid is a voluntary program and it was not an all or nothing proposition before PPACA tried to make it so.

Your example is not an apples to apples comparison because the PPACA is demanding a state accept more money to expand a program or take nothing. This simply wasn't the way it worked before PPACA.

Right, it's voluntary. You can elect not to participate and you get no money. If you DO participate, you have to comply with the rules established by Congress. States can't demand the money and say to the Feds - "We demand one TRILLION dollars, and we'll do what we want, and F you if you don't like our plan." NO, they get the money in accordance with and in the amount consistent with rules established by Congress. If they don't want to play by those rules, they get no money.
 
1321 was written clearly to establish a federal exchange in a state when it is determined that a state will not meet it's obligations under 1311. This is not a conflict.

Right, exactly. If states were recalcitrant and sat on their hands, Congress provided for a Federal remedy, and that remedy was the Feds or someone acting on the Fed's behalf would do the states' damn job for them and set up a 'state exchange.'

Heck, the court recognized these ARE "state exchanges." The only hangup is the provision that says, "established BY the state." Well, those 'state exchanges' were established by the feds. But you want to claim that the drafters intended to deny credits to those who bought insurance on any 'state exchange' established by the Feds.
 
Not ANY law - this law. And the reason states might create their own is self proving with the disaster of the Federal portal - the states that created their own (some of them) had better luck, and the funds to do so were provided by the Feds.

So it is your argument that the States would be coaxed into making their own portals because they knew the Federal portal was going to fail? This is "self proving" to you?



What you're ultimately suggesting is the drafters of the ACA INTENDED to deny subsidies to residents of states who didn't create their own exchanges. That is the core question - what was their INTENT. First of all, you can't show anything that indicates this was the intent of the drafters. Furthermore, if that was in fact their intent, the drafters certainly wouldn't have left that intent vague, and accomplished that intent obliquely. It's a HUGE deal that dismantles ACA in recalcitrant states. If Congress intended that result, allow states to dismantle the ACA by just sitting on their hands, they'd have so stated, and in a manner that left NO interpretation.

No, I am suggesting that the drafters INTENDED for all states to volunteer to create their own portals so their citizens would get subsidies. In their mind it is a win win, because if a state didn't set up their own portal then the Governor of that state (probably Republican) would be pilloried by Democrats which the DNC thought would help the Democrats win more state houses in future elections. This is the same political gambit they are currently using with Medicaid expansion.

Hey, surprise surprise... eligibility for Medicaid expansion ALSO has the same 1311 but not 1321 wording! Imagine that!

The IRS was empowered by the law to issue regulations to implement the law.

False. They weren't empowered to issue regulation, they were ordered to enforce regulation. The IRS can't be given the duty to, say, collect a 10% tax on tanning salons and then decide that the 10% also applies to the hotel industry.

No, that's just not right. The rationale that it was a drafting error is because if Congress intended that result, the rest of the ACA makes no sense. What you're saying is the drafters of the ACA intended to provide the weapons for opponents of ACA to dismantle ACA.

It makes perfect sense when you accept that the authors expected the majority of states to start their own exchanges. With your interpretation the bill makes far less sense as there would be no functional reason to separate 1311 and 1321 into their own sections unless your intent was to apply policy differently to the two forms of exchanges... which is what they did, and then did.

It's an insane interpretation. The drafters anticipated states would be hesitant to accept Medicaid expansion. So, they tied ALL Medicaid money to agreeing to expand Medicaid.

YOU MEAN LIKE TYING SUBSIDIES TO STATE BUILT EXCHANGES?


Congress cannot force (send troops?) states to create an exchange and the drafters anticipated some states might elect to just do nothing. So they said, "If YOU don't set up the exchange, WE will do it on your behalf. You WILL have an exchange one way or the other..."

"...but without subsidies... which means the electorate will be angry and you will get voted out of office."


They're excused when the intent is clear, and interpreting a drafting error in some manner is inconsistent with the rest of the statute and that intent.

And this wasn't inconsistent.

Now you're behaving like the court. Obviously I meant that the drafters of ACA intended for those signing up on state AND Federal exchanges to be eligible for subsidies. Heck, no one disputes this. There is nothing anywhere to suggest any provision or amendment was intended to limit subsidies to ONLY those on state run exchanges.

Sure their is: The PPACA law.

Right, it's voluntary. You can elect not to participate and you get no money. If you DO participate, you have to comply with the rules established by Congress. States can't demand the money and say to the Feds - "We demand one TRILLION dollars, and we'll do what we want, and F you if you don't like our plan." NO, they get the money in accordance with and in the amount consistent with rules established by Congress. If they don't want to play by those rules, they get no money.

It wasn't an "all or nothing" proposition before the PPACA.
 
Right, exactly. If states were recalcitrant and sat on their hands, Congress provided for a Federal remedy, and that remedy was the Feds or someone acting on the Fed's behalf would do the states' damn job for them and set up a 'state exchange.'

Heck, the court recognized these ARE "state exchanges." The only hangup is the provision that says, "established BY the state." Well, those 'state exchanges' were established by the feds. But you want to claim that the drafters intended to deny credits to those who bought insurance on any 'state exchange' established by the Feds.

And it was written into its own section, rather than as a footer to 1311 because the intent was to apply policy different to the Exchanges of different origins... which is what they did.
 
then they are not doing their job and should be disbarred.

Letting public opinion influence their ruling instead of the law and/or constitution is wrong, too. But they do it anyway.
 
So it is your argument that the States would be coaxed into making their own portals because they knew the Federal portal was going to fail? This is "self proving" to you?

It's a side issue.

No, I am suggesting that the drafters INTENDED for all states to volunteer to create their own portals so their citizens would get subsidies. In their mind it is a win win, because if a state didn't set up their own portal then the Governor of that state (probably Republican) would be pilloried by Democrats which the DNC thought would help the Democrats win more state houses in future elections. This is the same political gambit they are currently using with Medicaid expansion.

Nice theory, just your imagination to support it. Because if the state didn't set up its own portal, the Feds said, "We will do your damn job and set one up for you." They wrote that into the bill.

False. They weren't empowered to issue regulation, they were ordered to enforce regulation. The IRS can't be given the duty to, say, collect a 10% tax on tanning salons and then decide that the 10% also applies to the hotel industry.

Yes, they were empowered to issue regulations. And they did. Bottom line is even the DC circuit acknowledged this was a subjective decision. In my view, and in the view of 4 of 6 appeals court judges, the evidence is clear that the weight of the evidence is in favor of extending subsidies to people getting insurance on federally run state exchanges. At the very least, you could acknowledge the question is deep into the gray area.

It makes perfect sense when you accept that the authors expected the majority of states to start their own exchanges. With your interpretation the bill makes far less sense as there would be no functional reason to separate 1311 and 1321 into their own sections unless your intent was to apply policy differently to the two forms of exchanges... which is what they did, and then did.

It makes less sense, because the recalcitrant states could dismantle ACA by just doing nothing, and that's what the drafters of ACA wanted, to give them the tools to dismantle the law, which is why they wrote into the law that if the states didn't set up exchanges, the Feds would???? give me a break.

"...but without subsidies... which means the electorate will be angry and you will get voted out of office."

You're just making this up. Quote me anything, ever that indicates any drafter of ACA, those voting in favor, or supporters INTENDED to deny credits to those buying on Federally run exchanges. You can't. Not even the states believed credits hinged on them setting up their own exchanges. Not one supporter of ACA in Congress has backed up your imaginary scenario. Not one CBO estimate hinged the cost of subsidies on how many states set up their own exchanges. There was no debate in Congress whether credits would be available to citizens of states who bought off the Federal exchange - everyone assumed that of course the credits would be. You can point to NO evidence anyone involved with the drafting or voting on the law, pro or con, during the drafting or voting or after the voting believed credits hinged on states setting up their own exchange.

What you're asserting is this MASSIVE decision - to make credits hinge on whether the states set up an exchange - was the subject of ZERO debate in Congress or in the press.

And this wasn't inconsistent.

Well, 4/6 decided it was. 2/6 thought it wasn't. We'll see what the Supremes think eventually.

It wasn't an "all or nothing" proposition before the PPACA.

Sure it was - you either played by Medicaid rules or got no money. Those rules allowed some state discretion, but you still had to play by Medicaid rules. No one got a block grant of money - do with it as you want.
 
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And it was written into its own section, rather than as a footer to 1311 because the intent was to apply policy different to the Exchanges of different origins... which is what they did.

You keep saying this was the "intent" but keep failing to provide any evidence for this. When did this debate on this HUGE issue happen in Congress, or in the press? It didn't - everyone assumed the credits would be available whether a state set up an exchange or not.

I know of NO evidence any state that decided to NOT create their own exchange to make sure no one in their state got a credit. If this 'intent' was clear, then obviously 34/34 of states on the Federal exchange would all have assumed that by going the Federal route, their residents got NOTHING in credits. Did even ONE state make this assumption? Can you name any public official in any state that pointed this out during their debate? If you can name 1 or 2, there are 32 states who didn't mention this result in their decision making.

Bottom line is this is a gray area, and the court was and will be again tasked to weigh evidence about how to resolve an obvious conflict in the ACA. At the very least you could acknowledge that experts in the law and interpreting have so far split their decisions - 1 to 1 at the Appeals court level, 4/6 deciding against your view.
 
Hahahah!! Stop pretending you read the section.



1321 was written clearly to establish a federal exchange in a state when it is determined that a state will not meet it's obligations under 1311. This is not a conflict.

You should talk

There is a clear contradiction with 1311 saying all states *will* establish an exchange and 1321 saying that states possibly may *not* establish an exchange. I'm sure that you realize that it is a contraction to say that the states will establish an exchange and also say that some states will not.
 
You should talk

There is a clear contradiction with 1311 saying all states *will* establish an exchange and 1321 saying that states possibly may *not* establish an exchange. I'm sure that you realize that it is a contraction to say that the states will establish an exchange and also say that some states will not.

Why do you think the States were involved at all in writing the ACA? It was because it was thought they would be more responsive to their residents needs. I was unthinkable that a party that's platform includes "States Rights" would absolve it self from State run exchanges preferring to use Federal power instead. Bu it soon became apparent that the unthinkable would come to pass and that is the federal alternative.
 
Nice theory, just your imagination to support it. Because if the state didn't set up its own portal, the Feds said, "We will do your damn job and set one up for you." They wrote that into the bill.

Nope. You are the one spinning fantasies. If that was the only purpose for 1321 then there would be no 1321. It would have been included in 1311.

Yes, they were empowered to issue regulations. And they did. Bottom line is even the DC circuit acknowledged this was a subjective decision. In my view, and in the view of 4 of 6 appeals court judges, the evidence is clear that the weight of the evidence is in favor of extending subsidies to people getting insurance on federally run state exchanges. At the very least, you could acknowledge the question is deep into the gray area.

It's not a gray area as I see it. I think the intent is as clear as the wording, and I offer as part of my evidence the fact that the Democrats have already been using the PPACA administration throughout the states as a political attacking point. This was always their intent.

Also, as I have pointed out numerous times on this site, my general rule is to not grant the federal government power that you wouldn't trust your opponent to use. I have no doubt if the Federal Government wins this appeal that those arguing that this is perfectly normal will be screaming when the IRS and other agencies under a Republican administration decide to start selectively changing laws to what they think the original intent was.

That is not a power put in the hands of the agencies. If the law is sufficiently screwed up that it is providing the opposite of the intent then it is for the legislature to correct.


It makes less sense, because the recalcitrant states could dismantle ACA by just doing nothing, and that's what the drafters of ACA wanted, to give them the tools to dismantle the law, which is why they wrote into the law that if the states didn't set up exchanges, the Feds would???? give me a break.

No itwouldn't. A state opting out of ACA wouldn't kill ACA. It would likely end ACA in that state until such time as the residents of the state elect a Pro-ACA leadership, but that is about it. The ACA plan wouldn't be any different in states that adopted it and built their own exchanges. Nothing about the ACA relies on participation in all states to function.





You're just making this up. Quote me anything, ever that indicates any drafter of ACA, those voting in favor, or supporters INTENDED to deny credits to those buying on Federally run exchanges. You can't. Not even the states believed credits hinged on them setting up their own exchanges. Not one supporter of ACA in Congress has backed up your imaginary scenario. Not one CBO estimate hinged the cost of subsidies on how many states set up their own exchanges. There was no debate in Congress whether credits would be available to citizens of states who bought off the Federal exchange - everyone assumed that of course the credits would be. You can point to NO evidence anyone involved with the drafting or voting on the law, pro or con, during the drafting or voting or after the voting believed credits hinged on states setting up their own exchange.

Like I said, all I need to quote is the BILL THEY VOTED ON. You can argue that they were too stupid to read the bill before they voted, but that wouldn't be my problem. They voted on a bill that explicitly only authorized subsidies to states that built their own exchanges. I don't need to prove your intent to eat a sandwich after you already ate the sandwich. Your intent is proved in your actions.

What you're asserting is this MASSIVE decision - to make credits hinge on whether the states set up an exchange - was the subject of ZERO debate in Congress or in the press.

That's odd given that is exactly how they worded the bill.

So tell me, why doesn't the bill include subsidies for people who don't go through the exchange?

Well, 4/6 decided it was. 2/6 thought it wasn't. We'll see what the Supremes think eventually.

5 of 9 Supremes ruled for Hobby Lobby, does that mean you agree with it? It's funny how people seem to only argue the authority of the courts when the courts agree with their personal opinion.

Sure it was - you either played by Medicaid rules or got no money. Those rules allowed some state discretion, but you still had to play by Medicaid rules. No one got a block grant of money - do with it as you want.

Nope, that isn't how it worked. And anyway, 5 of 9 Justices disagree with you. ;)
 
You should talk

There is a clear contradiction with 1311 saying all states *will* establish an exchange and 1321 saying that states possibly may *not* establish an exchange. I'm sure that you realize that it is a contraction to say that the states will establish an exchange and also say that some states will not.

That isn't a contradiction.
 
If you find ANY estimate of the cost of the ACA, during drafting, or after the bill was passed, it will assume subsidies for residents of ALL 50 states, so you REALLY don't want to use that argument. It's self defeating. Look at CBO estimates. There is no mention in their estimates of the cost of the credits about which states have their own and which are operating on the federally run exchange.

For a reason
 
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