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Thread: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You sound very confused. What you've got wrong is your belief that the text doesn't allow the govt to offer subsidies through all of the exchanges.
    I'm not confused at all. PPACA subsidy eligibility doesn't say it is available to all exchanges. It specifically singles out 1311 in both the PPACA and the Federal Tax code. 1311 is for State-built Exchanges and 1321 is the Federal Exchanges. If they meant 1311 and 1321 they would have said that in the law.

    The Federal Government is trying to argue that intent should trump the letter of the law - admission that the letter of the law is not correct according to them. But that argument died today as it is increasingly clear that the drafters of the law intended the law to read precisely as it reads, which is that subsidies are only available to Exchanges created under Section 1311 by the States.
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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    I'm not confused at all. PPACA subsidy eligibility doesn't say it is available to all exchanges. It specifically singles out 1311 in both the PPACA and the Federal Tax code. 1311 is for State-built Exchanges and 1321 is the Federal Exchanges. If they meant 1311 and 1321 they would have said that in the law.

    The Federal Government is trying to argue that intent should trump the letter of the law - admission that the letter of the law is not correct according to them. But that argument died today as it is increasingly clear that the drafters of the law intended the law to read precisely as it reads, which is that subsidies are only available to Exchanges created under Section 1311 by the States.
    We've been through this and I've quoted the sections of ACA that allow subsidies for all the exchanges.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    We've been through this and I've quoted the sections of ACA that allow subsidies for all the exchanges.
    No, you think you quotes a section that says that, but it doesn't.
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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    No, you think you quotes a section that says that, but it doesn't.
    It does, but for some unexplainable reason, you think the administration lost its' argument even though the court decided at trial that the admin's interpretation is the correct one
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It does, but for some unexplainable reason, you think the administration lost its' argument even though the court decided at trial that the admin's interpretation is the correct one
    Nope. The only section that you quote that incorporates BOTH 1311 and 1321 is in regard to data reporting requirements to the IRS from the State and Federal exchanges. This does not prove anything because there are other reasons why the IRS would collect that data not related to subsidies.

    More important, while the Tax code makes it clear that BOTH 1311 and 1321 exchanges must report insurance data to the IRS, the Subsidy section only mentions 1311. The the IRS is quite clear in differentiating the two.

    So you are the one who appears confused.
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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Nope. The only section that you quote that incorporates BOTH 1311 and 1321 is in regard to data reporting requirements to the IRS from the exchanges. This does not prove anything because there are other reasons why the IRS would collect that data not related to subsidies.

    More important, while the Tax code makes it clear that BOTH 1311 and 1321 exchanges must report insurance data to the IRS, the Subsidy section only mentions 1311. The the IRS is quite clear in differentiating the two.

    So you are the one who appears confused.
    I'll add this argument of yours to the list of things you've gotten wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I'll add this argument of yours to the list of things you've gotten wrong
    Hah, yeah. You try to prove subsidies are intended for both exchange types by quoting tax code for data reporting requirements. Not the most brilliant play, chief.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Hah, yeah. You try to prove subsidies are intended for both exchange types by quoting tax code for data reporting requirements. Not the most brilliant play, chief.
    Seeing how the people making the argument won the trial, it obviously was a brilliant play
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    Fed appeals court panel says most Obamacare subsidies illegal

    The ruling just came in and is a huge blow to the obama administration.
    The 3 judge panel ruled that only people on state run exchanges qualified per the law.

    This could pretty much end obamacare as we know if it the SCOTUS rules the same way.
    the administration of course will appeal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Samhain View Post
    The ruling makes sense given that the government used the definition of "state" to mean actual states so as to exclude US Territories from the law.

    Can't say that "state" means a state on one hand and "state" to be "government" on the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    If this ruling stands which many think it will then millions are going to have their subsidies go up even more.
    however given that there are 0 subsidies to be given then they can get out of the law all together and so can their employer.

    it would set 36 states free of obamacare.
    When I first learned of the conflicting ruling between the DC Appellate Court and the Fourth District Court of Appeals, I went back and research the PPACA reviewing those provisions of the law that applied to the States creating their health insurance exchanges (Sections 1311-1313) and the tax credits that would apply (Sections 1401, 1411, 1413 and 1415). When I read these sections, I interpreted the meaning of the word "State(s)" to mean the same as it would mean in the 10 Amendment to the Constitution - all 50 State - which is the same way I'm sure pretty much everyone else would interpret "the State(s)" would mean in this case. Cut and dry, right? Not quite. You have to read Sections 1311 and 1321(c)91)(B) very carefully. The Secretary of HHS does have lots of leeway in setting up Exchanges in those states who don't establish them AND in issuing tax credits for those who qualify. (Mostly those who purchase Silver plans, Section 1331(a)(2)(A)) There's also the Healthcare Reconciliation Act that according to the below linked article attempts to clarify any vagueness on this matter. I admit I haven't read the provision(s) that apply from the HCRA because last time I read it, it mostly dealt with funding education initiatives in the medical fields (i.e., doctors, nurse practitioners and nurses).

    I found this article that does a very good job of explaining the situation (or should I say "did" considering that article was first written in 2012 in anticipation of a lawsuit on this very tax credit issue).

    Tax Credits In Federally Facilitated Exchanges Are Consistent With The Affordable Care Act’s Language And History – Health Affairs Blog

    Regardless, this issue may well need to be settled by the SCOUS.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-26-14 at 12:10 AM.
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    re: Federal Court rules Most obamacare subsidies Illegal[W:286]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Seeing how the people making the argument won the trial, it obviously was a brilliant play
    So you want to just pretend that today's developments didn't actually happen? I guess I know why...
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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