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Thread: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    You can be social without forming a nation state.
    On an individual level, yes.

    Beyond the individual level, things change.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    On an individual level, yes.

    Beyond the individual level, things change.
    Not really.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Not really.
    In terms of behavior there is no difference between one man and 10?

    When one joins a group, one surrenders some measure of individuality. Rules change. Pack mentality is different than individual mentality.

    It's great when the crowd happens to conform to one's individual preferences, but it doesn't always happen.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    In terms of behavior there is no difference between one man and 10?

    When one joins a group, one surrenders some measure of individuality. Rules change. Pack mentality is different than individual mentality.

    It's great when the crowd happens to conform to one's individual preferences, but it doesn't always happen.
    Voluntarily joining a group is different than creating a nation state with a violent protection racket holding a monopoly on it. Individuals, even in groups, can be social without creating nation states.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    I suspect there have been nation states WITHOUT violent protection rackets. Though I've never lived in one.

    In a civilized society, the rule of law is supposed to compensate for violent protection rackets, and ideally preclude their existence.

    But I'm an idealist.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Who are you saying lacks that skill, the Ukrainian military, or the Russian separatists?
    Since the United States military can makes such mistakes, most likely both. I was referring to the Separatists though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Nation states are a natural result of a society of human individuals. Men are social creatures.
    That's true, but doesn't quite capture of the subtlety of the distinctions. For example, a city-state is a similar construction whose authority structures only extend as far as a single municipality.

    Nation states are a geopolitical entity that can tie multiple communities into a politically cohesive unit. As we understand them today, they started existing in around the 14th century.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-19-14 at 05:39 PM.
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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Since the United States military can makes such mistakes, most likely both. I was referring to the Separatists though.



    That's true, but doesn't quite capture of the subtlety of the distinctions. For example, a city-state is a similar construction whose authority structures only extend as far as a single municipality.

    Nation states are a geopolitical entity that can tie multiple communities into a politically cohesive unit. As we understand them today, they started existing in around the 14th century.
    You are saying that even skilled militaries can make such a mistake? If so, yes of course I agree.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No, my working acceptance is that both Kiev and the separatists had means but only Kiev had motive. Because the separatists have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to gain by targeting a civilian aircraft, and everything to loose. So at this early date, prudence doesn't allow casting of blame.
    While certainly anything is possible, common sense tells me that this was the Russians & this is why.
    First of all from what I understand these are fairly complicated AA systems and takes a while to train someone proficiently on, maybe up to a couple years according to the Russins themselves. Since the conflict hasnt been going on very long I'd eliminate the Rebels. This would leave the Russian Special forces or the Ukrainian Army. Since these are probably fairly expensive equipment along with the trained operators, I doubt the Ukrainian Army would risk losing a unit by moving it to within 25 miles of the Russian border. The few they have are probably guarding ther major cities, airports & military bases. The chances of that AA unit which would have to be moved by a large Truck & getting that close to Russia with Rebels swarming all over the place and not being detected are slim to none. If it was detected and the Ukrainians were busted it would be a PR nightmare for them, probably not worth the risk and probably not worth losing the asset in battle either.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Truth is we don't KNOW whether it's a missile or a bomb like Pan Am 103. STill too soon to know.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    While certainly anything is possible, common sense tells me that this was the Russians & this is why.
    First of all from what I understand these are fairly complicated AA systems and takes a while to train someone proficiently on, maybe up to a couple years according to the Russins themselves. Since the conflict hasnt been going on very long I'd eliminate the Rebels. This would leave the Russian Special forces or the Ukrainian Army. Since these are probably fairly expensive equipment along with the trained operators, I doubt the Ukrainian Army would risk losing a unit by moving it to within 25 miles of the Russian border. The few they have are probably guarding ther major cities, airports & military bases. The chances of that AA unit which would have to be moved by a large Truck & getting that close to Russia with Rebels swarming all over the place and not being detected are slim to none. If it was detected and the Ukrainians were busted it would be a PR nightmare for them, probably not worth the risk and probably not worth losing the asset in battle either.
    Well, you make the same argument for the Ukrainians that I made for the Russian separatists, you called them rebels, but then it was a pretty rebellious bunch that overthrew the Ukrainian government and seized control of the country months ago. By the way, common sense isn't always the same for everybody. Otherwise your entire argument is predicated upon the idea that this plane was brought down by a SAM, which hasn't yet been proven.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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