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Thread: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Uh ... I'm not sure you understand how nation states work.

    Being a citizen of a nation state is like being a made man in an organized crime syndicate. The backing of that organization and its resources makes you untouchable among other criminals who would otherwise be inclined to stab you in the back or take you for a mark. Similarly, if the nation doesn't back you up, then everyone (enemies, dependants, allies) loses belief in its power and its stops being able to exert influence on world affairs because nobody takes them seriously when they claim they will be able to make things happen. The less able the United States or European Union are able to retaliate for this action, the less *everyone* believes in them.

    One of the disadvantages of being a rogue or a weak state is that when bad things happen to you, you don't have the diplomatic, military, and economic connections -- "the muscle" -- to make things worse for the person who wronged you.
    Why in the hell would the US or the EU "NEED" to retaliate for this action. The Ukraine isn't part of either of them and its far from confirmed exactly what and who brought this plane down. Less than a year ago, a fraction of the Ukrainian population showed up in the capital, and with a little Western support, toppled the Ukrainian government chasing the president out of the country under fire and seized control. That not pleasing ALL the citizens of the country, we now see a portion standing up for their self determination as well, and they are receiving the backing and support of the Russians, much like militant Islamic groups in Syria are receiving US support to help in their effort to overthrow president Assad, such is our lust to recognise a decades old goal of Syrian "regime change".
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Why in the hell would the US or the EU "NEED" to retaliate for this action. The Ukraine isn't part of either of them and its far from confirmed exactly what and who brought this plane down. Less than a year ago, a fraction of the Ukrainian population showed up in the capital, and with a little Western support, toppled the Ukrainian government chasing the president out of the country under fire and seized control. That not pleasing ALL the citizens of the country, we now see a portion standing up for their self determination as well, and they are receiving the backing and support of the Russians, much like militant Islamic groups in Syria are receiving US support to help in their effort to overthrow president Assad, such is our lust to recognise a decades old goal of Syrian "regime change".
    ... lots of dead European Union citizens? We are talking about a shot down plane, here. Again, I'm not sure you understand how nation states work. The reason why Putin is taking a hard line against Russian responsibility and is staring down foreign critics trying to make him responsible is because he thinks that strategy is going to make them back down because they are afraid of damaging their diplomatic and economic ties with Russia. Aka, staring Europeans down do good things for Russia, more than taking responsibility for financing rebels. On the flip side, if European governments don't hold him or the rebels responsible, then that means European governments can protect or avenge their body politics from harm. Aka, voting populations shouldn't believe in them or feel safe.

    Nation states exist primarily to make good things happen for themselves in anyway they can no matter how petty or irresponsible, not uphold universal human goods or to pursue universal justice. Again, crime syndicates. Crime syndicates that don't stand up for themselves get rubbed out.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 07-19-14 at 01:16 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... lots of dead European Union citizens? Again, I'm not sure you understand how nation states work. The reason why Putin is taking a hard line against Russian responsibility and is daring Europeans to try to make him responsible is because he thinks that strategy is going to make them back down. Aka, is good for Russia. If European governments doesn't hold him or the rebels responsible, then that means European governments can protect or avenge their body politics. Aka, voting populations shouldn't believe in them or feel safe.

    Nation states exist primarily to make good things happen for themselves in anyway they can no matter how petty or irresponsible, not uphold universal human goods or to pursue universal justice. Again, crime syndicates.
    Your argument is baseless and premature. Who and what caused this plane to crash has not been confirmed. And what's your schtick on nation states.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Your argument is baseless and premature. Who and what caused this plane to crash has not been confirmed. And what's your schtick on nation states.
    You start talking about how there "should be" no "fallout" or "reaction" to this event because, when the United States shot an Iranian airliner out of the sky, there was no fallout or reaction.

    My "sthick" on nation-states was to explain that that had nothing to do with morality or justice, but the realities of power. "Should be" doesn't factor much into the equation when Iran doesn't have the power to make "should be" into "will be".

    As for being "premature", your remarks about 'fallout' implied working acceptance over the notion that the Russian-backed rebels shot down the plane.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    You start talking about how there "should be" no "fallout" or "reaction" to this event because, when the United States shot an Iranian airliner out of the sky, there was no fallout or reaction.

    My "sthick" on nation-states was to explain that that had nothing to do with morality or justice, but the realities of power. "Should be" doesn't factor much into the equation when Iran doesn't have the power to make "should be" into "will be".

    As for being "premature", your remarks about 'fallout' implied working acceptance over the notion that the Russian-backed rebels shot down the plane.
    No, my working acceptance is that both Kiev and the separatists had means but only Kiev had motive. Because the separatists have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to gain by targeting a civilian aircraft, and everything to loose. So at this early date, prudence doesn't allow casting of blame.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No, my working acceptance is that both Kiev and the separatists had means but only Kiev had motive. Because the separatists have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to gain by targeting a civilian aircraft, and everything to loose. So at this early date, prudence doesn't allow casting of blame.
    Er, but they didn't have the technical skill to reliably differentiate a civilian aircraft from a military one, so your point is moot. Ukraine also has extremely limited operational capability in that region. Then there's eyewitness accounts and photographs and account from the international team that their access to the jet has been impeded by militants.

    All the signs of trying to cover up something which by its nature and the nature of technology in the 21st century "can't" be covered up.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by CharloTexan View Post
    Paranoid much?
    Expert on the subject? Second post in one year asking about paranoia - and nothing else re to OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    If certain gun guys are insulted by that? Good, they should be ashamed: the rest of US are sick and tired of having our intelligence insulted[/i].



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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Er, but they didn't have the technical skill to reliably differentiate a civilian aircraft from a military one, so your point is moot. Ukraine also has extremely limited operational capability in that region. Then there's eyewitness accounts and photographs and account from the international team that their access to the jet has been impeded by militants.

    All the signs of trying to cover up something which by its nature and the nature of technology in the 21st century "can't" be covered up.
    Who are you saying lacks that skill, the Ukrainian military, or the Russian separatists?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... lots of dead European Union citizens? We are talking about a shot down plane, here. Again, I'm not sure you understand how nation states work. The reason why Putin is taking a hard line against Russian responsibility and is staring down foreign critics trying to make him responsible is because he thinks that strategy is going to make them back down because they are afraid of damaging their diplomatic and economic ties with Russia. Aka, staring Europeans down do good things for Russia, more than taking responsibility for financing rebels. On the flip side, if European governments don't hold him or the rebels responsible, then that means European governments can protect or avenge their body politics from harm. Aka, voting populations shouldn't believe in them or feel safe.

    Nation states exist primarily to make good things happen for themselves in anyway they can no matter how petty or irresponsible, not uphold universal human goods or to pursue universal justice. Again, crime syndicates. Crime syndicates that don't stand up for themselves get rubbed out.
    Nation states are a natural result of a society of human individuals. Men are social creatures.

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    Re: Pictures show pro-Russian seperatists moving missles away from MH 17 crash site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Nation states are a natural result of a society of human individuals. Men are social creatures.
    You can be social without forming a nation state.

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