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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

So you only support self determination when you first look to see if your own government likes it too! A little selective there. Call it BS as you wish, in this particular case, I see it Moscow's way.

Not really, I personally am fine with the middle east deciding to blow themselves away if that is there choosing... so long as they don't bring their mess over to us. I'm even okay with them electing radicals into power, again understanding they don't mess with us. In Ukraine's case, the people wanted to move away from Russia's influence and towards the West. Putin and his lackeys didn't like the idea of one of their proxy governments moving away from them, so orchestrated the crackdowns that we saw. These are just the facts man. But hey, if you want to sympathize with Putin... be my guest.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Still don't see any sources to that BS. Look, what happened in Ukraine is the same thing that has been happening across Eastern Europe for the past two decades; people are sick and tired of Russia getting involved in their ****. They rose up in force and protested and were met with violence. So the people fought back and ousted the Russia-backed government who wouldn't listen to the demands of the people, and it's as simple as that. Now what you have in Eastern Ukraine is a rebelling that is being supplied and fomented by the Russians to again advance their imperial ambitions. I will say though that in the case of Crimea, it was a bit of sticky issue considering the Russians had a naval base there (despite the fact that the Russians stated that they wouldn't take lands from Ukraine after they left.)


That's actually a pretty simplistic view. Yanukovich was a Russian pawn and corrupt. Everybody knows that. He was also elected. So you've got protesters (including many neo-nazis providing some of the military heft) who rather than respect the democratic process in their Constitution had a "revolution" not unlike the one they just had 10 years ago revolving around the same people.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Not really, I personally am fine with the middle east deciding to blow themselves away if that is there choosing... so long as they don't bring their mess over to us. I'm even okay with them electing radicals into power, again understanding they don't mess with us. In Ukraine's case, the people wanted to move away from Russia's influence and towards the West. Putin and his lackeys didn't like the idea of one of their proxy governments moving away from them, so orchestrated the crackdowns that we saw. These are just the facts man. But hey, if you want to sympathize with Putin... be my guest.

Well its not about sympathising with anybody. It's about US intrigue, AGAIN. But some people never learn.
 
The possibly luckiest man on the planet is cyclist Maarten de Jonge from Oldenzaal who is sitting at his home safe and sound

The 29 year old professional cyclist for a Malaysian team mostly cycles his races in Asia. He was supposed to be on flight MH17 because his mother and a friend of his mother were only able to take him to Schiphol (the Dutch airport) on Thursday. But at the last moment he changed his mind and inquired into a flight from the same carrier that would fly on Sunday and that would save him 300 euro's because yesterdays flight was going to cost 1,000 euro's and the weekend flight was only 700 euro's.

The happened to be one seat left on that plane and he booked that one instead of MH17 the flight he had planned to fly with.

His desire to save a bit of money saved his life and this was the second time luck saved his life. On the 8th of March he was sitting in the lobby of the airport from which flight MH370 of Malaysian air was departing because he too was flying from that lobby but he choose to fly out on with a different airline to Beijing. That flight departed from that same gate to the same destination but his flight departed 50 minutes before flight MH370 was going to leave. Maarten had been chatting to a few people who would leave on MH370 and disappear.

This Sunday he plans to fly with Malaysian airlines to Kuala Lumpur because he needs to be there for his job. He isn't afraid to get on the plane, he said that he has been lucky twice so he should be safe this time too.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Not really, I personally am fine with the middle east deciding to blow themselves away if that is there choosing... so long as they don't bring their mess over to us. I'm even okay with them electing radicals into power, again understanding they don't mess with us. In Ukraine's case, the people wanted to move away from Russia's influence and towards the West. Putin and his lackeys didn't like the idea of one of their proxy governments moving away from them, so orchestrated the crackdowns that we saw. These are just the facts man. But hey, if you want to sympathize with Putin... be my guest.

Some of the people wanted that. There's different factions who want different things.

Just like some Americans like Obamacare, and some don't. People have differing points of view.
 
The possibly luckiest man on the planet is cyclist Maarten de Jonge from Oldenzaal who is sitting at his home safe and sound

The 29 year old professional cyclist for a Malaysian team mostly cycles his races in Asia. He was supposed to be on flight MH17 because his mother and a friend of his mother were only able to take him to Schiphol (the Dutch airport) on Thursday. But at the last moment he changed his mind and inquired into a flight from the same carrier that would fly on Sunday and that would save him 300 euro's because yesterdays flight was going to cost 1,000 euro's and the weekend flight was only 700 euro's.

The happened to be one seat left on that plane and he booked that one instead of MH17 the flight he had planned to fly with.

His desire to save a bit of money saved his life and this was the second time luck saved his life. On the 8th of March he was sitting in the lobby of the airport from which flight MH370 of Malaysian air was departing because he too was flying from that lobby but he choose to fly out on with a different airline to Beijing. That flight departed from that same gate to the same destination but his flight departed 50 minutes before flight MH370 was going to leave. Maarten had been chatting to a few people who would leave on MH370 and disappear.

This Sunday he plans to fly with Malaysian airlines to Kuala Lumpur because he needs to be there for his job. He isn't afraid to get on the plane, he said that he has been lucky twice so he should be safe this time too.

Kind of reminds of how Seth McFarlane (Family Guy creator) was originally booked to be on one of the flights that went into the towers on 9/11.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Another patronising American. :doh

Behind the U.S.-backed coup that ousted the democratically elected president of Ukraine are the economic interests of giant corporations – from Cargill to Chevron – which see the country as a potential “gold mine” of profits from agricultural and energy exploitation, reports JP Sottile.

Exposing the U.S. Corporate Interests Behind Ukraine Coup | Alternet

Ukraine, an American arranged coup? Again. (sic) - Hannu Virtanen - Open Salon

Do you honestly believe that the people in this video give a **** about US Corporate interest? Are willing to risk injury, death and imprisonment so a company could make a few dollars.

Ukraine Protest 2014: After Riots, Declaring Victory in Kiev | The New York Times

And of course some business want to take advantage of opportunities to expand into the region, and that has the potential to bring a lot of wealth and jobs to the Ukrainians. But this doesn't prove some connection with the protests, it just demonstrates businesses taking advantage of an oppurtunity.
 
One Australian family was hit doubly hard by the crash of MH17. Kaylene Mann lost her brother Rod Burrows and her sister in law Mary in March. They were on flight MH370 from Malaysia airlines that has disappeared. In flight MH17 she lost her stepdaughter and her stepdaughter's husband.

Woman loses family on MH370 and MH17
 
Some of the people wanted that. There's different factions who want different things.

Just like some Americans like Obamacare, and some don't. People have differing points of view.

With one major exception, we're not cutting the heads off of those who disagree.

That's actually a pretty simplistic view. Yanukovich was a Russian pawn and corrupt. Everybody knows that. He was also elected. So you've got protesters (including many neo-nazis providing some of the military heft) who rather than respect the democratic process in their Constitution had a "revolution" not unlike the one they just had 10 years ago revolving around the same people.

And in a democracy, you have a right to protest don't you? It's only when the government decided to violently crack down on the protesters that they were then forced to take more aggressive actions.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Do you honestly believe that the people in this video give a **** about US Corporate interest? Are willing to risk injury, death and imprisonment so a company could make a few dollars.

Ukraine Protest 2014: After Riots, Declaring Victory in Kiev | The New York Times

And of course some business want to take advantage of opportunities to expand into the region, and that has the potential to bring a lot of wealth and jobs to the Ukrainians. But this doesn't prove some connection with the protests, it just demonstrates businesses taking advantage of an oppurtunity.

No, I don't, they had there own reasons for protesting. Having difficulty keeping up? What I sourced you was one reason why US policy was support of a coup to topple the Ukrainian government. A favorite US FP pastime, if you haven't noticed.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

And somewhat distracted the public eye from Israel's invasion of Gaza happening pretty much at the same time.

The shooting down of the plane is not linked in any way with Israel's military operations. The timing is purely coincidental.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

No, I don't, they had there own reasons for protesting. Having difficulty keeping up? What I sourced you was one reason why US policy was support of a coup to topple the ukranian government. A favorite US FP pastime, if you haven't noticed.

Wait a minute. Did you just agree with me that the people protesting were doing it for reasons other than American interests? Because you just defeated your own argument there.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Wait a minute. Did you just agree with me that the people protesting were doing it for reasons other than American interests? Because you just defeated your own argument there.

How so? Of course those people camping out endlessly were there of their own accord for reasons wholly different than US foreign policy interests. I'm explaining to you that the US sponsored, encouraged and worked with the people who they wanted to take control of the country once the original government was toppled. Go read the BBC's transcript of the leaked Victoria Nuland's phone conversation during the planning phase of this coup.

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call
 
With one major exception, we're not cutting the heads off of those who disagree.



And in a democracy, you have a right to protest don't you? It's only when the government decided to violently crack down on the protesters that they were then forced to take more aggressive actions.

The protesters weren't going to be happy until he stepped down. They didn't respect the electoral process as the whole point was to get him to resign. There were parts of the protesting crowd who were simply waiting for an excuse to have an armed uprising. While I certainly don't condone the action to crack down on them, it's incredibly simplistic to paint the whole conflict in the black and white terms you are using.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

How so? Of course those people camping out endlessly were there of their own accord for reasons wholly different than US foreign policy interests. I'm explaining to you that the US sponsored, encouraged and worked with the people who they wanted to take control of the country once the original government was toppled. Go read the BBC's transcript of the leaked Victoria Nuland's phone conversation during the planning phase of this coup.

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

Because, you don't have a coup unless the people support it. As you said, those people weren't doing it for some American corporate interests, but for their own reason. Which means that you can't put this on the US because the impetus for all this didn't come from us.

And of course the West is going to back the new government that forms, the whole reason the government forms is to have closer ties with the West. Also, it would need to be supported since Russia obviously wasn't going to contribute aid to it anymore. I think because you see the Americans as bad guys, your seeing a cause and effect that doesn't exist. The coup didn't happened because Western Businesses wanted access to the country, but as a result of closer ties with the Ukraine those opportunities will open up. And by the way, this is what Ukraine wants as well.
 
The protesters weren't going to be happy until he stepped down. They didn't respect the electoral process as the whole point was to get him to resign. There were parts of the protesting crowd who were simply waiting for an excuse to have an armed uprising. While I certainly don't condone the action to crack down on them, it's incredibly simplistic to paint the whole conflict in the black and white terms you are using.

This really is a black and white issue. In a democracy, you have the right to protest. The whole reason this started was because the people of Ukraine took to the streets to protest what the Government was doing. As far as your hypothetical of people wanting an armed uprising, the truth is they didn't start the fighting. And what else are these people suppose to do, just roll over and die? Of course their going to fight back when you have the government slaughtering their own people.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Because, you don't have a coup unless the people support it. As you said, those people weren't doing it for some American corporate interests, but for their own reason. Which means that you can't put this on the US because the impetus for all this didn't come from us.

And of course the West is going to back the new government that forms, the whole reason the government forms is to have closer ties with the West. Also, it would need to be supported since Russia obviously wasn't going to contribute aid to it anymore. I think because you see the Americans as bad guys, your seeing a cause and effect that doesn't exist. The coup didn't happened because Western Businesses wanted access to the country, but as a result of closer ties with the Ukraine those opportunities will open up. And by the way, this is what Ukraine wants as well.

I suppose you think that ALL the Ukrainians were in Kiev protesting the government last year.
 
This really is a black and white issue. In a democracy, you have the right to protest. The whole reason this started was because the people of Ukraine took to the streets to protest what the Government was doing. As far as your hypothetical of people wanting an armed uprising, the truth is they didn't start the fighting. And what else are these people suppose to do, just roll over and die? Of course their going to fight back when you have the government slaughtering their own people.


"The people of Ukraine"!!!! You speak as though 45,000,000 people laid siege on Kiev. Several thousand rebel rousers toppled the elected government of 45 million people with Western support and you consider this a democratic process representative of the Ukrainian people. Totally pathetic.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I suppose you think that ALL the Ukrainians were in Kiev protesting the government last year.

Now there you do have a point. Back during the Soviet days, you had a lot of Russians move into eastern Ukraine for the fertile farming land. This is why the east is up in rebellion right now, as most of them come from Russian descent and, much like with Crimea, don't want to lose those ties with the Motherland. However, the vast majority in the west, where Kiev is, were in support of the protesters. I remember stories during the protests of pro-government forces actually busing in people from eastern Ukraine to attempt to counter the protesters... but they were just too few. And when violence broke out (initiated by the government), then all bets were off. With people dying everyday, of course those in Kiev were going to go after the government.

"The people of Ukraine"!!!! You speak as though 45,000,000 people laid siege on Kiev. Several thousand rebel rousers toppled the elected government of 45 million people with Western support and you consider this a democratic process representative of the Ukrainian people. Totally pathetic.

I don't remember there just being a "couple of thousand" people at those protests. And again, is not protesting part of the democratic process? You seem to be skipping that part as you champion the Pro-Russian government.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Now there you do have a point. Back during the Soviet days, you had a lot of Russians move into eastern Ukraine for the fertile farming land. This is why the east is up in rebellion right now, as most of them come from Russian descent and, much like with Crimea, don't want to lose those ties with the Motherland. However, the vast majority in the west, where Kiev is, were in support of the protesters. I remember stories during the protests of pro-government forces actually busing in people from eastern Ukraine to attempt to counter the protesters... but they were just too few. And when violence broke out (initiated by the government), then all bets were off. With people dying everyday, of course those in Kiev were going to go after the government.



I don't remember there just being a "couple of thousand" people at those protests. And again, is not protesting part of the democratic process? You seem to be skipping that part as you champion the Pro-Russian government.

Why is "couple of thousand" in quotes???? Protesting is a democratic process. We had occupy protesting, I have no problem with that. I would not have appreciated them burning buildings in the Capitol and chasing the president out of town under fire. The fact that you think protests which result in the overthrow of a government by force, with the president fleeing under fire is a democratic process is very concerning to me.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Why is "couple of thousand" in quotes????

Meant several, my bad. In any event, this doesn't look like several thousand:

ukraine_protest.jpg


And the vast majority, and that's probably understating it, by the end wanted the old president gone. This wasn't just some bunch of yahoos that decided out of the blue to kick out the president, but just the tip of a much larger spear.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Meant several, my bad. In any event, this doesn't look like several thousand:

ukraine_protest.jpg


And the vast majority, and that's probably understating it, by the end wanted the old president gone. This wasn't just some bunch of yahoos that decided out of the blue to kick out the president, but just the tip of a much larger spear.

Let me see if I can find a crowd of 45 million, and we'll compare it to yours. Again, I doubt that you would support the same overthrow of our own government in similar fashion. But, maybe I'm wrong about that.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

It is a normal flight route, lots of planes over that area every day.

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!

See for yourself, go to flightradar24.com and look at traffic over that area.
Sen. Mark Kirk (R) want's to have anti missile defense systems mounted on all civilian aircraft. Oh what a novel idea, til future hijackers grab more planes and fly them into buildings like on 9/11/01, and while our air force tries to shoot 'em down, the terrorists will be laughing in the cockpits. Does this guy have a brain? Please, no need to answer that one. :roll:
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Let me see if I can find a crowd of 45 million, and we'll compare it to yours. Again, I doubt that you would support the same overthrow of our own government in similar fashion. But, maybe I'm wrong about that.

If said government were slaughtering people in the street, then yes... yes I would. Are you saying you wouldn't?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

what do the maidan protests have to do with news of the crash?!

could you discuss that somewhere else?

I am sure there are threads covering that.
 
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