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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I didn't say it was racism. I said it was playing the race card. One can focus on race without being a racist. I was accused of playing the race card and I replied that I was responding to someone - you - who brought up race first.
Well, you did say we only wanted to see his transcripts because he is (half) black. That's a far cry from bringing up affirmative action.

The University of Chicago itself has a note on their website (since it became such a Frequently Asked Question) explaining that Obama's title of Senior Lecture is a full equivalent to a professor. Here, don't take my word for it; take theirs:

Oh, yes I read that. They were quite careful with their wording, doing their best to try and say he was a professor, without actually saying. I heard an interview with an actual professor there shortly after Obama was elected. Basically he said Obama was pretty quiet, kept to himself, nothing outstanding, and wasn't around much. They used to say hello to each other, then Obama refused to even look at him when he found out he was a Republican.

I can't fathom Columbia University and Harvard University thinking "huh, we got this mediocre student here, Barack Obama, a nobody by the way, coming from some mixed family, an immigrant father who left the country and a mother who died, raised by his middle-class grand parents. Huh, out of the blue, let's just pretend his work is outstanding and give him our highest grades. Who cares for our standards we've been upholding strictly for more than a century? We just feel like whisking along the mediocre kid." My friend, this is HIGHLY unlikely.

Funny, you could be describing all those that voted for him and put him in office. Yes, highly unlikely, but it happened. I would NEVER have believed that a guy so obviously unqualified could even get considered, let alone get elected.


There's been people even less qualified who got offered senior positions - the most blatant example being Sarah Palin, a barely literate woman...
Palin, is a rock solid conservative, so she's got my support. Like it or not, she was way more qualified that Obama, and in hindsight, could not have done a worse job that Obama.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Well, you did say we only wanted to see his transcripts because he is (half) black. That's a far cry from bringing up affirmative action.

Guilty as charged. OK, let me stop beating around the bush. Maybe it is not PC to say so, but I do think people who insist in seeing his transcript (remember, candidates to POTUS are supposed to show their tax return, not their school transcript so this is something that has only been applied to Obama) do so because he is (half) black. There you go. You can hate me for saying so but that is actually what I do think.

Oh, yes I read that. They were quite careful with their wording, doing their best to try and say he was a professor, without actually saying. I heard an interview with an actual professor there shortly after Obama was elected. Basically he said Obama was pretty quiet, kept to himself, nothing outstanding, and wasn't around much. They used to say hello to each other, then Obama refused to even look at him when he found out he was a Republican.

Being quiet has nothing to do with whether or not his work was outstanding. This Republican is assessing his work as a law professor as "nothing outstanding" based on what? He didn't seem to be close enough to Obama to even know. "They used to say hello to each other." "And wasn't around much" - according to the university, Obama taught three courses per semester, there. He was not a full-timer. Maybe that's this professor's notion of "not being around much." "Refused to even look at him when he found out he was a Republican" - understandable, given how Republicans treat him, accusing him all the time of not being American-born, trying to see his transcript, saying he is a Muslim, etc.

Funny, you could be describing all those that voted for him and put him in office. Yes, highly unlikely, but it happened. I would NEVER have believed that a guy so obviously unqualified could even get considered, let alone get elected.

The alternatives (warmonger McCain with his idiotic VP candidate, and economically disconnected 47%-man who loves to fire people Romney) were so dismal, that no wonder Obama got elected and re-elected.

Palin, is a rock solid conservative, so she's got my support. Like it or not, she was way more qualified that Obama, and in hindsight, could not have done a worse job that Obama.

I profoundly disagree that Palin was more qualified. She didn't even finish the job of governor of Alaska. She is just a very dumb, very ignorant, very unqualified former politician. Had McCain been elected and croaked, we'd have been stuck with the least qualified president in our nation's history, even worse than weak Obama and some other historical disasters. After the campaign, her own staffers have disclosed how terribly ignorant and clueless she was, while they were trying to brief her so she didn't look so bad.

Hey, being conservative is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't blame her for being conservative. I blame her for being dumb and ignorant.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The alternatives (warmonger McCain with his idiotic VP candidate, and economically disconnected 47%-man who loves to fire people Romney) were so dismal, that no wonder Obama got elected and re-elected.

Hey, don't argue with me about McCain and Romney. Both weak, establishment Republicans. No where near conservative. Why vote for them when you can vote for the full blown version with Obama? Palin was the only conservative in the whole bunch. As an aside, Romney was absolutely right with that comment. It's amazing how people can be mislead and be turned against someone who is just giving a known fact.


I profoundly disagree that Palin was more qualified. She didn't even finish the job of governor of Alaska. She is just a very dumb, very ignorant, very unqualified former politician. Had McCain been elected and croaked, we'd have been stuck with the least qualified president in our nation's history, even worse than weak Obama and some other historical disasters. After the campaign, her own staffers have disclosed how terribly ignorant and clueless she was, while they were trying to brief her so she didn't look so bad.

Hey, being conservative is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't blame her for being conservative. I blame her for being dumb and ignorant.

Obviously, I disagree there. You should get informed on what was being done to her if you think it was just a question of her finishing her job as governor. She was the target of some of the most vile, disgusting attacks from the left that any politician has ever had to endure. You want to see which party has a war on women? Take a look at some of the things the democrats said (and continue to say) about Sarah Palin.

She had to play catch up when she joined the McCain ticket, she wasn't ready for that campaign. But you are mistaken about her, she is a great speaker, believes in the Constitution, and is grounded in solid conservative principles. Just those things put her way ahead of Obama, a guy who looks for ways to circumvent the Constitution. One supports the Constitution, one hates it. No comparison.

Now, she may not be my first choice for President, but I'd take her over Jeb, McCain, Romney, etc...
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

An anti-Putin newspaper has printed this newspaper

View attachment 67170218

Which says in Dutch (and Russian) "Netherlands, forgive us".

That's not possible. Everyone knows Russia does not have any freedom of the press. No self-respecting dictator would allow such a stinging statement from the country's domestic media.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Guilty as charged. OK, let me stop beating around the bush. Maybe it is not PC to say so, but I do think people who insist in seeing his transcript (remember, candidates to POTUS are supposed to show their tax return, not their school transcript so this is something that has only been applied to Obama) do so because he is (half) black. There you go. You can hate me for saying so but that is actually what I do think.

That's not true though. We don't require it, but candidates do supply access to those records on request. I can recall every president but the current one from Clinton on doing so as a candidate. Obama as a candidate played quite a lot of word games. Ask him for something simple like his college transcripts and the guy did gymnastics to avoid supplying them, making it look like he was hiding something. Instead of just supplying them.

Fast forward to now when we know that most of what he promised in his campaign was a lie, and we tend to distrust his closed record achievements. It's not because of his race, but because of the way he hides normal stuff as if there's something to hide.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Imo...

...the rebels shot it down stupidly and unintentionally.

...the pilot/airline were idiots to fly over the area (I don't care how many other airlines did as well - they were idiots also).

...Ukraine should have closed that route to civilian traffic so long as the war raged.

Blame all around (the rebels primarily).
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I don't think it was accidental.

Judging from the way the story was spun from the beginning, I think there was a purpose for the shootdown.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

More news from MH17, the first victim has been identified and the mayor of the town in which the victim lived, as well as the family of the victim has been notified. The mayor has been notified so he can organize victim aid support etc. etc. etc.


As a result of the crash another person has died. 93 year old Henk Palm from Roden in the Netherlands has passed away from a broken heart (according to his family). The man had been deeply saddened when his only daughter Erla, his son in law Rob and his only grandchildren Merel and Mark had died because of the downing of flight MH17. Henk Palm died 5 days after the crash.


Separatists in Ukraine claim to have handed over personal luggage of the victims of MH17 to Dutch investigators.


Maria Putin has taken shelter somewhere other than her place of living in Voorschoten the Netherlands because curiously Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands.


The forensic experts who were on their way to the crash site have not traveled to the crash site because of fights in the area
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Times cover story for the August 4 issue which I just got in the mail says that Putin will virtually face no backlash from this, and Europe's reaction will remain subdued, even from the Netherlands, and especially from Italy which now holds the rotating EU presidency. It says that even if Europe comes to be in line with the United States in imposing tougher sanctions, at the first opportunity they will walk away from it. Putin knows very well that the EU and the US are toothless, he controls domestic opinion through an adoring media (even the private media is pro-Putin in Russia for the most part, and he cracked down on those who aren't), and he will just plow ahead in his dream of destabilizing NATO and implementing an Eurasia.

It's depressing. One laments the fact that the West is toothless, and of course the right wing warmongers in the United States put the blame on what they perceive is a weak Obama, but then, what do we (Americans) want? We are uncomfortable with the fact that we are losing global influence and that we *are* weak at this time and have an indecisive president, but we also don't want more wars. All these people who bash Obama on this are talking from the standpoint of partisan politics, because if they were in power and were sending in the troops (or even significantly arming the pro-Kiev Ukrainians) these measures would be extremely unpopular.

So, America is facing a huge paradox - we don't like the fact that we are impotent right now but we also don't want more foreign conflict.

Meanwhile Putin will continue to thrive.

I don't see any way out. The only way out would be for Europe to become really serious about this, but we know that they won't. They are too dependent on Putin's oil and gas and don't want to upset a shaky economic recovery. They don't seem to have learned from their 20th century history that appeasement is not a good strategy.

So, we'll just walk blindly into another century of growing conflict in Europe and there's almost nothing we can do to avoid it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

So, America is facing a huge paradox - we don't like the fact that we are impotent right now but we also don't want more foreign conflict.

Obama is impotent, and even if we had a different president, things may be the same.

The public still doesn't know the facts, and we don't know if our government knows with certainty either.

What if our government's certainty is as good as the Yellowcake certainty? Really now... What should we do?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Times cover story for the August 4 issue which I just got in the mail says that Putin will virtually face no backlash from this, and Europe's reaction will remain subdued, even from the Netherlands, and especially from Italy which now holds the rotating EU presidency. It says that even if Europe comes to be in line with the United States in imposing tougher sanctions, at the first opportunity they will walk away from it. Putin knows very well that the EU and the US are toothless, he controls domestic opinion through an adoring media (even the private media is pro-Putin in Russia for the most part, and he cracked down on those who aren't), and he will just plow ahead in his dream of destabilizing NATO and implementing an Eurasia.

It's depressing. One laments the fact that the West is toothless, and of course the right wing warmongers in the United States put the blame on what they perceive is a weak Obama, but then, what do we (Americans) want? We are uncomfortable with the fact that we are losing global influence and that we *are* weak at this time and have an indecisive president, but we also don't want more wars. All these people who bash Obama on this are talking from the standpoint of partisan politics, because if they were in power and were sending in the troops (or even significantly arming the pro-Kiev Ukrainians) these measures would be extremely unpopular.

So, America is facing a huge paradox - we don't like the fact that we are impotent right now but we also don't want more foreign conflict.

Meanwhile Putin will continue to thrive.

I don't see any way out. The only way out would be for Europe to become really serious about this, but we know that they won't. They are too dependent on Putin's oil and gas and don't want to upset a shaky economic recovery. They don't seem to have learned from their 20th century history that appeasement is not a good strategy.

So, we'll just walk blindly into another century of growing conflict in Europe and there's almost nothing we can do to avoid it.

The Ukraine problem isn't any problem at all. The handwringing is melodramatic. Putin has responded to US/Western intrigue in Kiev last fall and nothing more. This isn't a Hitler-esq land grab, and the comparisons people have made are ridiculous. Since Reagan, the US has sought to expand NATO eastward, and Russia's resistance is quite natural.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Obama is impotent, and even if we had a different president, things may be the same.

The public still doesn't know the facts, and we don't know if our government knows with certainty either.

What if our government's certainty is as good as the Yellowcake certainty? Really now... What should we do?

My answer to what we should do, I've expressed elsewhere a few times already. I kind of forgot about what my own thinking is, kind of influenced by the Times article, so, thinking again about it and recovering my own point of view on it (which is a bit contradictory to what I said above, but I'm willing to reset), here it is, again.

1. We should stay *completely out* of Ukraine and say out loud that we have no interest in having any say whatsoever in this *regional* conflict (one we shouldn't have fostered in the first place by encouraging the Kiev activists who downed a corrupt but elected government), and would implement no sanctions, no help to Kiev, would send no arms, no *nothing.* We'd say to Putin - "Ukraine is your problem and your backyard - do as you please, we have nothing to do with this and will take no action whatsoever."

2. However, simultaneously, we would beef up NATO *dramatically* - really, really dramatically. We'd put *enormous* pressure on all our European NATO member allies to come up with the required 2% of GNP for the NATO military (only a fraction of NATO members actually honor their treaty obligations in terms of contributions to NATO's budget). We'd station a *huge* number of sophisticated tanks along the NATO borders with non-NATO countries, would position Air Force bases in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and increase the forces in Germany, Romania, etc., equipped with thousands of sophisticated fighter jets and other advanced weaponry.

3. We'd fully implement the planned, so far only partially and timidly started European Rapid Response Force. This should be way above and beyond any conventional Russian Army capability. It should be overwhelmingly more powerful than anything Russia would come up with.

4. We'd work intensively in decreasing Europe's dependence on Russian gas and oil, with more exports from NATO members Canada and the United States of oil and shale gas to Europe, including a floating carrier delivery system and floating refinery system like the one Estonia has just built, and would also encourage Europe to do their part (such as, more willingness to engage in fracking - environmental concerns are fine, but at this time it is even more important to become independent of Russian gas).

5. We'd increase the NATO Nuclear Weapons Sharing program, currently benefiting Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, and Turkey, to include all NATO nations that border non-NATO states.

6. We'd signal to Putin in non-equivocal terms and speaking with one voice with all 28 NATO members that while our take is that he should feel free to do whatever he wants in his regional sphere of influence regarding former Soviet republics that are now independent states but are not NATO members - because this is none of our business, any attempts to use similar tactics to destabilize any current NATO members would be IMMEDIATELY met wit OVERWHELMING reaction with a MUCH BIGGER STICK, therefore he should put to rest any idea of Eurasia because his ambitions definitely stop where NATO begins.

7. We would also stop expanding NATO and the European Union (maybe after we finish absorbing the remainder former Yugoslavia already candidate countries like Serbia, because we don't want belligerent Serbia to be left out and restart destabilizing things, falling back into sympathy for Russia) which only adds to Russian paranoia. For example, we have no interest whatsoever in absorbing Ukraine into any Western organization such as NATO or the EU. They are messy, broke, they are a political nightmare with neo-Nazi factions, and they would just be a burden both militarily and economically. The Pottery Barn rule applies - Putin breaks it, Putin owns it, and we want no part of it.

I think the response to Russia is to increase, not decrease, American/Canadian involvement in Europe (the NATO/EU side of Europe, not the non-NATO side), until the alliance can become a real military power that stands on its own feet without basically just relying on the United States. Once this is obtained (as in, all 28 states coughing up their 2%) then it would actually result in savings for us.

Of course all of this would only be achieved in 5 to 10 years. This period of time, however, is nothing, in geopolitical terms.

I think the world is becoming tougher and tougher with the BRICS emerging more and more, and the future for the US and Canada is to enhance even more the alliance with Western Europe, given that we share the same values and many of the same interests.

However, this should be done by fortifying and enhancing the existing alliance, not by expansion which does no good and only increases tensions.

If Russia could believe that NATO is untouchable but also doesn't want to bite off any more chunks of his sphere of influence, then maybe things would settle down.

--------

Of course, to have the above credibly implemented, we'd need strong and credible leadership in the White House, something we sorely lack, at this time. I think the Obama administration is doing a severe disservice to our country and to world equilibrium. I wish the aloof, disconnected lame duck would just resign. At this point even Biden seems better.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Ukraine problem isn't any problem at all. The handwringing is melodramatic. Putin has responded to US/Western intrigue in Kiev last fall and nothing more. This isn't a Hitler-esq land grab, and the comparisons people have made are ridiculous. Since Reagan, the US has sought to expand NATO eastward, and Russia's resistance is quite natural.

What is ridiculous of the west, is to think the Ukraine was ever ready for the EU.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

What is ridiculous of the west, is to think the Ukraine was ever ready for the EU.

Agreed, as in my #7 above. As a matter of fact, Europe had already turned down Ukraine in 2008.

We shouldn't have poked the Bear on behalf of messy Ukraine six years later, with the Kiev activists being actually a very iffy bunch. If Ukraine wasn't ready in 2008, they were even less ready in 2013/4.

I'm quite sure that European businessmen who were eying economic advantages to be had by bringing Ukraine into Europe's influence are now deeply regretting the move. If anything, when the elected government of Ukraine opted for the Russian proposal rather than the European one, which is what started the crisis, Europe should have said, "OK, right, do that; and as a matter of fact we are withdrawing our proposal. You're better off with Russia and we want no part of you."

Maybe the entire crisis could have been averted.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

It looks like Europe has finally agreed to implement more significant sanctions against Russia on Monday, and so did Japan. Do you guys think this time these sanctions will have some punch?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

It looks like Europe has finally agreed to implement more significant sanctions against Russia on Monday, and so did Japan. Do you guys think this time these sanctions will have some punch?
I think they better have some solid evidence, else be outed as fools at a later date.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I think they better have some solid evidence, else be outed as fools at a later date.

The US did show pictures today of rocket launching sites on the Russian side of the border, complete with burn marks from the rockets being actually fired, and the effect of the rockets on Ukrainian troops on the Ukrainian side of the border. That's pretty damaging evidence.

The sanctions are not just linked to MH17. They are implemented due to the fact that Russia is interfering with the sovereign state of Ukraine by supporting the pro-Russian separatists with weapons, expertise, and now even direct artillery firing.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The US did show pictures today of rocket launching sites on the Russian side of the border, complete with burn marks from the rockets being actually fired, and the effect of the rockets on Ukrainian troops on the Ukrainian side of the border. That's pretty damaging evidence.

The sanctions are not just linked to MH17. They are implemented due to the fact that Russia is interfering with the sovereign state of Ukraine by supporting the pro-Russian separatists with weapons, expertise, and now even direct artillery firing.

OK, which separatist group held control of that areas?

Where is the picture?

Link please.

Isn't the assumed area (Snizhne) controlled by a different separatist group (not the Russian separatists,) and wasn't there a Ukrainian missile attack in that town by a Ukrainian fighter?
 
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You guys know, there are more separatist groups than the Russian one, right?

And the Black Box is being analyzed. They will be able to determine the location in flight when struck.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The US did show pictures today of rocket launching sites on the Russian side of the border, complete with burn marks from the rockets being actually fired, and the effect of the rockets on Ukrainian troops on the Ukrainian side of the border. That's pretty damaging evidence.

The sanctions are not just linked to MH17. They are implemented due to the fact that Russia is interfering with the sovereign state of Ukraine by supporting the pro-Russian separatists with weapons, expertise, and now even direct artillery firing.

How can one know those pictures are inside Russia. How can one know those "black launch marks" are from a launcher belonging to Russia, are in Russia. Do you remember all the satellite photos Collin Powell was showing us of WMD inside of Iraq supposedly that never were there. If you can be shown a picture of a rocket launcher, told that its inside Russia and believe it, then there's a problem.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

How can one know those pictures are inside Russia. How can one know those "black launch marks" are from a launcher belonging to Russia, are in Russia. Do you remember all the satellite photos Collin Powell was showing us of WMD inside of Iraq supposedly that never were there. If you can be shown a picture of a rocket launcher, told that its inside Russia and believe it, then there's a problem.

OK, you do make good points.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The experts working on the identification of human remains of flight MH17.

The experts have been able to determine that there are 176 more or less complete bodies and 527 body parts which were collected.

The experts, working with DNA, dental and other determining features (like fingerprints) have identified 65 victims of flight MH17. 39 remains were from Dutch citizens and 26 are from foreign nationals.

The experts have sent 650 dna samples to the Dutch forensic institute NFI who are working as fast as they can to process these samples.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

And in the meantime the Ukraine government still withholds the ATC tapes....:confused:
 
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