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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

  1. #691
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    I could say the same thing about the Ukraine. They propagated lie after lie before and after the Crimea incident.
    OK, I read your link... while a bit less over-dramatic than your awful rubbish clip, it doesn't change anything... it says:

    The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms
    See? It's all speculation... the unnamed source is merely saying that these soldiers in similar uniforms might either be Ukrainians, or rebels.

    Now, if not only for that, how can we give any credence to this second-hand ambiguous report from an unnamed source? If if this journalist is not making it up to sell news, his "unnamed source" never said unequivocally that the soldiers were Ukrainian, so, this is hardly something that adds any new element to this investigation.

    ---------

    Here is the core of the issue:

    Question: "Who shot MH17? Ukrainians, or Separatists?"

    This *unnamed* source's answer: "Huh... They look Ukrainians. Oh wait, they actually might also be Eastern Ukrainians... I don't know, these uniforms are all similar."

    --------

    Great! This really closes the case, huh?
    Last edited by GreatNews2night; 07-22-14 at 01:06 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    No, you said "have you followed the attached links and sublinks?" I clicked on your embedded clip, not on "watch on youtube." But OK, I'll explore your link, thanks for repeating it.
    See post 650.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    See post 650.
    Ah, OK. I hadn't noticed, sorry. Minor point, though. Now I *have* read the link, and remain just as unimpressed. See post 691.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Ah, OK. I hadn't noticed, sorry. Minor point, though. Now I *have* read the link, and remain just as unimpressed. See post 691.
    That's why I also mentioned the links withing links. There is so much more information that first link addresses and links.

    There is one where the NY times recants information in one of their stories.

    When I go to linked material people post that looks remotely legitimate, I follow most or all the embedded links. You will find I am one who complains when people give quotes without links, or links that link no sources.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    That's why I also mentioned the links withing links. There is so much more information that first link addresses and links.

    There is one where the NY times recants information in one of their stories.

    When I go to linked material people post that looks remotely legitimate, I follow most or all the embedded links. You will find I am one who complains when people give quotes without links, or links that link no sources.
    Now I have looked at all your secondary links. Mostly it all goes back to the same blog, by the same journalist who pretends to be independent. He is basically quoting himself. The one outside article he quotes I had already read elsewhere. And the NYT thing about Crimea is old, old, old news.

    Again, unimpressed. Sorry. I wish I could tell you differently but after having now explored ALL your links, what I see is *one* journalist with a past (he seemed to have been important decades ago at the time of the Iran-Contras, this if we agree with his tooting his own horn) who keeps referencing his own blog, and who makes vague references to unnamed sources and clearly has a beef against the West and the official versions of things.

    Let me guess... is he also a Libertarian?

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Well, it's hard to uphold as unbiased, a report that comes from... Moscow.... and starts by referring to the pro-Russian separatists as "self-defense fighters".
    Are reports from D.C. or Kiev more reliable? That is the only other option available at present. Both sides would have their reasons to lie, but I think the best test is to see if someone is making a claim that anyone can prove or disprove. Specific statements about what the online videos contain can be checked by any enterprising individual with an Internet connection so it is less likely to be a lie. D.C. and Kiev are, on the other hand, claiming they have some data or material that they are not sharing with anyone saying so and so did such and such. What they do share is stuff that can be easily faked and they already have been caught faking similar evidence before.

    Whether or not what they are technically saying about this tape may or may not be accurate... may be also completely made up, including the conspiracy theory element that the tape was made one day before the crash. That sounds awful, frankly, in its tone of "see, they shot the plane, and planed it all one day in advance."
    Well the Youtube data says the video was created a day prior to the plane being shot down. That may be taken at first as suggesting it was pre-planned or it could be that the video was created the day prior regarding another incident and subsequently altered to make it seem like it was about the airliner.

    Tell me, were the tweets that the rebels posted then deleted when they realized the plane was civilian, also fakes made in Kiev?
    Social media evidence is terribly unreliable, but, more importantly, there is no indication that any tweets were actually from people in a position to know. Even those accounts supposedly belonging to senior officials are believed to actually be operated by fans or followers at the most who often only repeat things they hear or read about elsewhere. Given that it is already proven that intelligence agents spread false information via social media, it is not outlandish to suggest operatives looking to cover for something Kiev did would try to spread the word that separatists shot down the jet by making false claims of responsibility or providing false eyewitness accounts on various discussion forums or social media pages. These then get repeated elsewhere and prompts it to be taken as gospel.

    About the images that pretend to be Ukrainian Buk systems, one, they could be totally fabricated, two, rebels a couple of days earlier had boasted about having captured Ukrainian Buk systems, three, Ukraine did say they possess these systems which doesn't mean they were deployed or fired.

    So, no, not very convincing, sorry.
    Funny thing is that everything that Kiev and D.C. have presented could also be fabricated and there are all sorts of reasons to doubt what they saying. Yet, people are not showing them the same skepticism.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    Well, you agreed with the fact that MM stated about Reagan not responding....LOL
    Oh, so you think that MM were the ones I was speaking of? Ahem....NO. Legitimate reporting of the time was what I was speaking of...MM just use that as cover to garner their lies.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Now I have looked at all your secondary links. Mostly it all goes back to the same blog, by the same journalist who pretends to be independent. He is basically quoting himself. The one outside article he quotes I had already read elsewhere. And the NYT thing about Crimea is old, old, old news.

    Again, unimpressed. Sorry. I wish I could tell you differently but after having now explored ALL your links, what I see is *one* journalist with a past (he seemed to have been important decades ago at the time of the Iran-Contras, this if we agree with his tooting his own horn) who keeps referencing his own blog, and who makes vague references to unnamed sources and clearly has a beef against the West and the official versions of things.

    Let me guess... is he also a Libertarian?
    Robert Parry is highly respected. He's worked the beats at Newsweek, Bloomberg, PBS, AP and NY Times. The White House bashes unnamed sources too, but White House uses unnamed sources.

    Reality is.. a Intel officer isn't gonna go officially on the record and never will because 1) It'll blow his or her cover. 2) It'll end his or her career. Yet.. WH used unnamed sources on the OBL raid and there are other examples. Just cause it's unnamed doesn't make it less true or not true. Rather is for security reasons. Then when the WH gets pissed they tend to out them like Valerie Plame.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, so you think that MM were the ones I was speaking of? Ahem....NO. Legitimate reporting of the time was what I was speaking of...MM just use that as cover to garner their lies.
    Was it a lie that Reagan didn't say anything for 4 days?

    LOL
    "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Are reports from D.C. or Kiev more reliable?
    We all know that there is an information/misinformation/PR war going on, from the beginning of this conflict.

    For Moscow: Separatists or "self-defense fighters" = angels. Can do no wrong.
    Ukrainian soldiers = murderers, torturers, right-wing thugs
    Kiev/US/EU: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on expanding NATO into the core of Moscow

    For Kiev//US/EU: Separatists = terrorists, murderers, torturers
    Moscow: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on destabilizing and annexing Ukraine
    Kiev/US/EU = angels, can do no wrong

    What else is news?

    Now, given this impossible cloud of contradicting information, what do you think? Who shot down MH17?

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