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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Why are people making such a fuss about 35K feet versus 33K feet? the SA-11 Buk launcher unit can hit planes up to 72K feet. These 2K feet of difference between what the pilot wanted and what the ATC wanted make no difference whatsoever. People are reaching for straws.

    About the suggestion that this particular plane was intentionally diverted into a war zone by the Ukrainian authorities to be shot, this is absurd. There were several other airlines at the time using the same corridor. Apparently what happened is that people thought that being above 32K feet was enough protection since the previous incidents of military planes getting shot were rather by much shorter range missiles and nobody was expecting a sophisticated Buk unit to be operated by the rebels.
    Fine, when you show me the unbiased proof that other airliners flew over the exact same route within a week of MH17, I will believe you.

    And if they did, then why did the rebels decide to shoot this one down in particular?


    I am not claiming to know what happened.

    But you claiming you do simply because the alternatives are 'absurd' to you is not evidence enough for me.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    After all the various times the U.S. has been caught misrepresenting or outright fabricating evidence in pursuit of its foreign policy objectives, one would think people would stop throwing out the c-word every time someone suggests a shoddy case from unreliable sources might actually be pure garbage.
    Exactly.

    Let's also consider how carefully any argument is being crafted against the rebels or the Russians for presentation to the world in light of the recent past, when the USS Vincennes (CG-49) shot down an Iranian airliner over the Persian Gulf in 1988. All 290 civilians on board were killed, including 60 children. If it was rebels with stolen hardware that shot down the Malaysian Airline, what allowance do we give them for an error that we so willingly extended to ourselves, considering the highly trained crew manning the most advanced of missle cruisers sailing the seas at that time?

    We weren't at war with Iran, nor was that declared a war zone, yet we took down that airliner without question. In the case of Ukraine, that part of the country was indeed known to be in conflict.

    Just some thoughts.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Fine, when you show me the unbiased proof that other airliners flew over the exact same route within a week of MH17, I will believe you.
    Err the route is a highway in the sky. There were tons of planes in the area at the time.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Err the route is a highway in the sky. There were tons of planes in the area at the time.
    There were 'tons' of airliners flying through the same exact air corridor where MH17 was shot down?

    And your proof is?



    http://www.flightradar24.com/45.3,28.05/5

    Okay...then why did the rebels choose to shoot down that particular plane as opposed to the 'tons' of others?

    And why did MH17 apparently choose a different route then normal?

    https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/...142656/photo/1

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...000Z/EHAM/WMKK


    And, granted this is from a Russian source, but:

    'On July 8, Ukraine’s State Aviation Service banned all flights over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions aiming to provide “adequate safety and security for all flights of civil aircraft in favor of state aviation.'

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741192
    Last edited by DA60; 07-21-14 at 08:14 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    There were 'tons' of airliners flying through the same exact air corridor where MH17 was shot down?

    And your proof is?



    Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker!

    Okay...then why did the rebels choose to shoot down that particular plane as opposed to the 'tons' of others?

    And why did MH17 apparently choose a different route then normal?

    https://twitter.com/VagelisKarmiros/...142656/photo/1

    Malaysia Airlines (MH) #17
    That picture is AFTER the plane was shot down. There is a huge amount of miss-information out there.. gezz.

    Flight MH17: A well-flown path | The Economist

    The route is called "Airway L980".

    L980 was a crowded airway before the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 on July 17th. The route crossing eastern Ukraine was the flightpath chosen by many of the passenger jets making the journey between the big cities of Europe and South Asia
    PeteEU

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    That picture is AFTER the plane was shot down. There is a huge amount of miss-information out there.. gezz.

    Flight MH17: A well-flown path | The Economist

    The route is called "Airway L980".
    I realize the picture was after the shootdown...duh. It was just an example.


    That's not proof, that is heresay. It does not say how many planes or the exact size and location of the corridor or if other planes used it that week.

    I am not saying it was not used, but I want detailed information from unbiased sources...not heresay from news sites.

    But assuming it's true then please answer my other questions.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-21-14 at 08:31 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I realize the picture was after the shootdown...duh. It was just an example.


    That's not proof, that is heresay. It does not say how many planes or the exact size and location of the corridor.
    LOL do you want an official log of what planes were in the area at the time of the shooting? Not even sure that this exists in the public domain as of yet. But regardless it does not change the facts in the Economists article. It is a highway in the sky, used by airlines going from Eastern Europe to Asia. The only warning in the area was for planes flying under 32k feet.

    But assuming it's true then please answer my other questions.
    They have been shooting down Ukranian planes and helicopters for weeks. This could be (and most likely is) a massive mistake. They were targeting another plane in the area, and because of their lack of expertise on the weapons they looted from the Ukrainian military.. they simply shot down the wrong plane. This is the most logical explanation compared to all the conspiracy theories going around.. everything from it was the Ukranians who were trying to shot down Putins plane, to it being the Russians from Russia doing it. Only missing the "aliens did it" theory.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL do you want an official log of what planes were in the area at the time of the shooting? Not even sure that this exists in the public domain as of yet. But regardless it does not change the facts in the Economists article. It is a highway in the sky, used by airlines going from Eastern Europe to Asia. The only warning in the area was for planes flying under 32k feet.



    They have been shooting down Ukranian planes and helicopters for weeks. This could be (and most likely is) a massive mistake. They were targeting another plane in the area, and because of their lack of expertise on the weapons they looted from the Ukrainian military.. they simply shot down the wrong plane. This is the most logical explanation compared to all the conspiracy theories going around.. everything from it was the Ukranians who were trying to shot down Putins plane, to it being the Russians from Russia doing it. Only missing the "aliens did it" theory.
    So you have zero unbiased proof of air traffic over/near Donetsk during the few days before MH17 was shotdown? Just heresay and theories.

    Yet you claim, in a matter-of-fact manner, that 'There were tons of planes in the area at the time.'.

    Noted.


    And you still did not answer me as to why MH17 apparently diverted 300 miles north from it's normal flight path that day.

    Guesses, heresay and theories don't mean much to me...unbiased facts do.

    Please save your theories for others.


    And btw, I never said the rebels didn't down MH17...I think they did.

    But I also think there might be more going on then Kiev/Washington claim.


    Good day.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-21-14 at 08:52 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    So you have zero unbiased proof of air traffic over/near Donetsk during the few days before MH17 was shotdown? Just heresay and theories.

    Yet you claim, in a matter-of-fact manner, that 'There were tons of planes in the area at the time.'.

    Noted.
    No, you just refuse to accept anything that goes against your conspiracy theory.

    Fact is the International Civil Aviation Organisation had one warning for the corridor... do not fly under 33k feet.
    Fact is that this is a known air corridor and widely used air corridor.
    And then there is this..

    Why Planes Still Flew Over Ukraine Until MH17 Was Shot Down | Autopia | WIRED

    It’s likely no one thought planes flying that high were at risk, says Mikael Robertsson, a co-founder of FlightRadar24, a site that tracks planes around the world. Malaysia Airlines had flown this route repeatedly over the past several weeks without incident, as had other carriers. When MH17 was shot down, it was right next to two other passenger planes operated by Air India and Singapore Airlines.

    Plus, flying around Ukraine is a major pain: The country is right in the middle of a common direct route between Europe and southeast Asia. Longer routes mean more fuel and more chances for delays, so cost-conscious airlines avoid such maneuvers whenever they can.
    So now I have provided 2 reputable sources stating it was an air corridor and there were planes "near" the Malaysian plane.

    And you still did not answer me as to why MH17 apparently diverted 300 miles north from it's normal flight path that day.
    Wind could be a reason. And it was only 200 miles.

    Please save your theories for others.
    The only theory I have is the wind one... the others are facts.. facts you refuse to accept for some reason.

    And btw, I never said the rebels didn't down MH17...I think they did.

    But I also think there might be more going on then Kiev/Washington claim.
    Then we agree on this.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Why does Obama need to respond. This is between Ukraine, eastern Ukraine Russian separatists and Russia. Or are you just so addicted to US interference in every damn thing that happens around the world that you just can't stand to miss a fight?
    And therein lies the problem with your thinking. A civilian airliner is shot down, and you believe it doesn't even deserve a response from the United States. Sure, go ahead, no problem here.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
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