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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    I am now assuming what happened is the rebels shot down the plane using an SA-11 missile(s).

    But apparently that missile cannot on it's own differentiate between military and civilian aircraft - you need additional radar assets for that. And the rebels do not appear to have that kind of radar system operational.

    So, my guess is that they saw the Malaysian 777 on the radar, assumed it was a Ukranian transport plane (since they probably thought civilian airline flights would not stray into a known war zone) and shot it down with a SA-11 missile.

    So, it was probably a reckless, though unintentional, mistake.


    All of this still begs the question...what the heck was a modern airliner doing flying near/over a known war zone?

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I am now assuming what happened is the rebels shot down the plane using an SA-11 missile(s).

    But apparently that missile cannot on it's own differentiate between military and civilian aircraft - you need additional radar assets for that. And the rebels do not appear to have that kind of radar system operational.

    So, my guess is that they saw the Malaysian 777 on the radar, assumed it was a Ukranian transport plane (since they probably thought civilian airline flights would not stray into a known war zone) and shot it down with a SA-11 missile.

    So, it was probably a reckless, though unintentional, mistake.


    All of this still begs the question...what the heck was a modern airliner doing flying near/over a known war zone?
    The answer to your question could be in the communications between the ATC's and the pilot.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The answer to your question could be in the communications between the ATC's and the pilot.
    Agreed.

    Additionally, if the Ukranian high command knew that the rebels did not have the radar assets to differentiate 'friend or foe' (which I assume they did), then they would also probably know that any plane that flew into rebel airspace would be shot at (as many had before).

    And if the above is true, if one were cynical, one could argue that the Ukranian high command deliberately diverted that plane into rebel air space - hoping that they would shoot it down, cause a huge international backlash against the rebels and receive huge amounts of aid/assistance to end the war sooner and/or force the Russians to stay out of it completely.

    Btw,

    'It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."'

    Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet | Zero Hedge


    'Malay Mail Online — July 18, 2014

    Pro Russian militia survey the wreckage of MH17 at the crash site. Click to enlarge
    Malaysia Airlines (MAS) said tonight that it was told to fly low over Ukrainian airspace by ground controllers, putting it at 33,000 feet, just skimming 1,000 feet above restricted altitude.

    In a statement here, MAS explained that MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”.

    “However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground.

    “Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet,” the national carrier said.'


    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=101049


    Finally, there were no Ukranians on board MH17.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay...ngers_and_crew
    Last edited by DA60; 07-21-14 at 02:02 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    It is pathetic that people are so readily buying the rather shoddy Washington-Kiev case for responsibility. Social media posts? Give me a break and no one should buy any audio or video "proof" from the people who tried to perpetrate this fraud on the public. This whole situation makes me think of Halabja. It would not be the first time Ukraine's military shot down a civilian airliner by accident and had someone else try to cover it up for them and exploit it for political purposes at the same time.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Oh great the conspiracy forum is spilling over again.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Oh great the conspiracy forum is spilling over again.
    After all the various times the U.S. has been caught misrepresenting or outright fabricating evidence in pursuit of its foreign policy objectives, one would think people would stop throwing out the c-word every time someone suggests a shoddy case from unreliable sources might actually be pure garbage.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    After all the various times the U.S. has been caught misrepresenting or outright fabricating evidence in pursuit of its foreign policy objectives, one would think people would stop throwing out the c-word every time someone suggests a shoddy case from unreliable sources might actually be pure garbage.
    It is pathetic though to accuse everyone of being pathetic. Nothing like alienating everyone that disagrees with you.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Agreed.

    Additionally, if the Ukranian high command knew that the rebels did not have the radar assets to differentiate 'friend or foe' (which I assume they did), then they would also probably know that any plane that flew into rebel airspace would be shot at (as many had before).

    And if the above is true, if one were cynical, one could argue that the Ukranian high command deliberately diverted that plane into rebel air space - hoping that they would shoot it down, cause a huge international backlash against the rebels and receive huge amounts of aid/assistance to end the war sooner and/or force the Russians to stay out of it completely.

    Btw,

    'It now appears that answer will not be forthcoming because as the BBC reports "Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency."'

    Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet | Zero Hedge


    'Malay Mail Online — July 18, 2014

    Pro Russian militia survey the wreckage of MH17 at the crash site. Click to enlarge
    Malaysia Airlines (MAS) said tonight that it was told to fly low over Ukrainian airspace by ground controllers, putting it at 33,000 feet, just skimming 1,000 feet above restricted altitude.

    In a statement here, MAS explained that MH17 had initially filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000 feet above Ukrainian territory, which it described as close to the “optimum altitude”.

    “However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground.

    “Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000 feet,” the national carrier said.'


    Ukraine air traffic controllers instructed MH17 to fly lower, MAS says


    Finally, there were no Ukranians on board MH17.

    Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Why are people making such a fuss about 35K feet versus 33K feet? the SA-11 Buk launcher unit can hit planes up to 72K feet. These 2K feet of difference between what the pilot wanted and what the ATC wanted make no difference whatsoever. People are reaching for straws.

    About the suggestion that this particular plane was intentionally diverted into a war zone by the Ukrainian authorities to be shot, this is absurd. There were several other airlines at the time using the same corridor. Apparently what happened is that people thought that being above 32K feet was enough protection since the previous incidents of military planes getting shot were rather by much shorter range missiles and nobody was expecting a sophisticated Buk unit to be operated by the rebels.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    It is pathetic that people are so readily buying the rather shoddy Washington-Kiev case for responsibility. Social media posts? Give me a break and no one should buy any audio or video "proof" from the people who tried to perpetrate this fraud on the public. This whole situation makes me think of Halabja. It would not be the first time Ukraine's military shot down a civilian airliner by accident and had someone else try to cover it up for them and exploit it for political purposes at the same time.
    Really? Please explain then why are the rebels hindering the international "crime scene investigation"? What do they have to hide, if as you suggest Ukraine's military are the culprits for downing the plane?

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Really? Please explain then why are the rebels hindering the international "crime scene investigation"? What do they have to hide, if as you suggest Ukraine's military are the culprits for downing the plane?
    Are they?

    First off this is a conflict zone, and is controlled by the rebels. These rebels are hardly well organized and never have been.

    Secondly this is a conflict zone.. yes it needs repeating. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else. The rebels could be expecting an attack or that the Kiev forces would exploit this tragedy to move in and take over the area. There is in fact reports of an attack near the site this morning.

    Thirdly the rebels are being played by the western media. I in no way support the rebels, but the crap the media and Kiev/west have been pulling the last few days is mind-boggling. First the rebels were not giving access, when the investigators were not even there. Should the rebels give access to Kiev people? HAHAH yea right. Then the rebels were not doing enough to take care of the corpses and secure the scene... despite the scene being massive. Then there was an outrage that it was taking so long to get the corpses away and that they were rotting in the hot sun. Then the rebels did remove them and suddenly they were "kidnapping" the corpses. Come on....Then the accusation is that the black boxes have been stolen.. eh? The rebels have said they have them, and that they will be handed over to the international aviation investigation group or whatever it is called. The rebels might have done this (most likely) but damn they cant do anything right it seems according to Kiev and the west..

    The investigators are in the area and have been for days, something that the media often forgets to mention. Problem is the area the wreckage covers is huge.. we are talking 10+ square miles and even in the west that would be damn hard to secure not to mention control.. and this is a conflict zone.

    Now the rebels are being blamed for not handing over the corpses, which they did put on a train.. a refrigeration train... a very good thing. Of course the rebels wont send the train through government control areas.. and the west wont accept it goes via Russia.. then what the hell do you do?

    Are the rebels trying to "hide" things.. maybe, but the Kiev government and the west are also trying to define the narrative. This tragedy has turned into another propaganda bitch fight by the west vs Russia.
    PeteEU

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