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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    True, but 36% of Germany's gas comes from Russia. That is the biggest EU country. And you, IMO, cannot just cut off 1/3 of your gas and have no noticeable effect on the economy.

    Plus, as I added to my earlier post,

    Putin does not have to run for re-election until 2018...why would he care if he drops in the polls for a year or two while he finds other buyers for his oil/gas?

    And as I posted earlier, his numbers are skyrocketing despite the sanctions.

    Russian Approval of Putin Soars to Highest Level in Years


    Look, you believe Putin will blink first. I think the EU will.

    We will see who is right.


    Btw, thanks for debating like an intelligent adult...around here that is somewhat rare.
    His ratings will drop like a stone after this tragedy of his making. I don't think the Russian people are as murderous as Putin.
    Putin will back down before risking the loss of his oil and gas sales to Europe. Just wait and see.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    One tiny village in the Netherlands called Neerkant in Noord-Brabant has been especially deeply affected by the crash of flight MH17.

    The village has less than 1800 inhabitants and the beloved Wals family was on board of the crashed plane. Mother Nicole, Father Jeroen and their 4 children, Solenn (9), Amèl (12), Jinte (15) and Brett (17) were killed.

    The school that the youngest attended opened it's doors last night for villagers who wanted to talk/support each other, many then walked to the house of the family where lived to leave flowers or light a candle in their memory. The children were friends with a lot of the village children, largely due to either being schoolmates, members of the dance club, volleyball club, scouting or (in the case of the oldest) the soccer club.

    The villagers knew almost certainly that the family had been killed because oldest child Brett had sent out a selfie from him inside the airplane. But it still took a long time before it was officially confirmed.

    All around the Netherlands stories like this are coming out.

    The town of Hilversum was also deeply affected due to three entire families who died in the crash.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

    I fear that once again a valuable learning lesson will be lost in the aftermath of this tragedy. This is about irresponsibility, not about any of the side issues we wish to champion that came before or after this horrible event.

    As educated, intelligent, and presumably responsible individuals, you don't fly into war zones.

    There must indeed be a faulty element in the gene that manifests intelligence as an evolutionary characteristic in the mammals known as human beings. All other animal species know by instinct when to fight, flee, or avoid.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    One tiny village in the Netherlands called Neerkant in Noord-Brabant has been especially deeply affected by the crash of flight MH17.

    The village has less than 1800 inhabitants and the beloved Wals family was on board of the crashed plane. Mother Nicole, Father Jeroen and their 4 children, Solenn (9), Amèl (12), Jinte (15) and Brett (17) were killed.

    The school that the youngest attended opened it's doors last night for villagers who wanted to talk/support each other, many then walked to the house of the family where lived to leave flowers or light a candle in their memory. The children were friends with a lot of the village children, largely due to either being schoolmates, members of the dance club, volleyball club, scouting or (in the case of the oldest) the soccer club.

    The villagers knew almost certainly that the family had been killed because oldest child Brett had sent out a selfie from him inside the airplane. But it still took a long time before it was officially confirmed.

    All around the Netherlands stories like this are coming out.

    The town of Hilversum was also deeply affected due to three entire families who died in the crash.
    That's awful.

    When Pan Am 103 was incinerated in the air over Lockerbie, Scotland, in the late 1980s, there were a lot of Syracuse (NY) University students on the plane. Since SU is a journalism school (my field) and also in my neck of the woods, I know many people who knew close to half of the casualties. Syracuse has a memorial on campus and still commemorates that horrible day. So I can somewhat relate, but not nearly to that level.

    My thoughts are with the people of that town in the Netherlands.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    First off, we've been training rebel fighters in Syria and not very choosy with whom we're helping. That doesn't mean their some grand conspiracy theory with us ... I don't are you saying we're using ISIS to ... what? Destabilize a country we just left? Take the tin foil hat off and think for a moment. This is just like those who were saying that Bin Laden was a CIA agent or some stupid thing, because we backed them in a fight against the Soviet Union.
    US was training and using ISIS for Syria, that's all I am saying. ISIS had bigger plans then Syria and the US and NATO allies ignored those ISIS plans because they had the same goal.... Get rid of Al-Assad. There are also NSA documents leaked by Snowden that confirm that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (ISIS Leader) when released by the US was in fact made a US "intel asset". .

    Bin Laden wasn't a CIA agent/asset and never said he was.. so don't assume what I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    And of course they were talking about setting up a new government. By that point, you weren't going to fight a hell of a lot of sympathy from the protesters for the ex president. And if it was already a forgone conclusion that the president had to leave, then there would have to be some sort of government to come into play afterwards. We found out from our experiences in Iraq what a colossally stupid idea it is to not think about the government that follows after you topple the old one. Also, this wasn't a dictatorship, although may of wished it so I suppose (maybe a soviet proxy like the cold war, let's just run them over with tanks huh?) In a democracy, people do really bad things sometimes. After all, we re-elected both Bush and Obama didn't we? That doesn't however give the government any right to slaughter people in the street who are executing their democratic right to protest. Once the bullets started flying, it really didn't matter which was the better deal. People were dying on the streets because a power hungry president was beholden to his Russian puppet masters and didn't (or couldn't) relent.
    US had no reason to talk to them and pick and choose who was gonna run what.. if it was truly a Ukrainian people's movement. Sorry, that's interference in the will of the people correct? You wouldn't the EU picking who's gonna be the US President would you? Ukraine was given 2 real choices (Tymoshenko and Poroshenko), both of which the West highly favored and named by Victoria Nuland in that phone call in which she gave approval.. the rest were light weights who no money and access. Hmm.. who's gonna win? Just cause you have an election doesn't mean it's free or fair. North Korea has elections.. wanna know who wins that one? Oh that's right the only one that runs.

    For a Libertarian you are ill-informed on what happen, but to each his or her own.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Or, third, the old government was kicked out and Russia has been fomenting rebellion in the east where a lot of Russian settlers went in when the old Soviet Union took over the place and kicked the native Ukrainians from their homes. Not sure why you keep white-washing Russian in this whole deal.
    There is no third. I have yet to white-wash Russia here. There is always two sides to a fight. But let me drop some history on you.

    Ukraine has barely existed for 100 years (in fact it's current borders will be 100 years old in 2017) and before that the reason was settled by Ottomans, Crimean Khanate, and a region known as Novorossiya (New Russia). This area had Tartars, Ottomans, Russians, Polish, Romanian and Ukrainian (Kievan Rus). The towns being fought over now, like Mariupol and Donetsk.. were and still are Russia cities. Where Russian is the key language, not Ukrainian. They identify as Russians. You are talking millions of people who feel Russian more then Ukrainian and they should. These towns and cities exist because Russians cleared out the Ottomans and Crimean Khanate 400 years ago and for 380 years they've been closer to Russia.

    As a Libertarian I can't support a Government telling me I can't be who I want to be and that's exactly the new Ukrainian Government is telling the people in Eastern Ukrainian. Ukrainian's parliament voted to ban Russian as it's first official act. That's what set the people off in Eastern Ukraine.. Then incidents in Odessa made it worse. End of story is.. both sides are at fault. Both sides made mistakes. Both sides didn't learn from it and in a region in which weapons are plenty.. this is what happens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    It's never been about what you or I want, but what the Ukrainians want.
    I never said it was about what I want. Rather what is an economic sound choice for you as a Ukrainian. You know damn well the Russian deal was the best for the Ukrainians and if Ukrainians weren't caught up in Nationalist ideals equal to that of United States, Nazi Germany or Soviet Union or even current Russian (and for other readers I am not saying US is like those others I listed but rather has Nationalistic tendencies over certain things), they really would have thought the process out. But like a petulant people, they never considered..

    Take the Russian money and spend the next few years get their house in order and move slowly towards the west. That way their economy isn't harmed, they aren't reliant on Russia for fuel but explore their own oil fields. It's such a simple concept. But the West (EU) was forcing them to choose right then and there. Russia was saying you take that deal, consider yourself cut off. Ukraine could have been doing what it's been doing since 1991. Taking Russian money and moving more to the West. But alas, Nationalism got the best of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    You do realize that you jut put three links to the same news story right? (Same topic, not same link, my bad.)
    Yep, of a phone call about the Snipers in Kiev that were killing and wounding both Police and Protestors.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Of course they did. Because the Ukrainian Government were such nice and fuzzy people. No one ever died to government troops, and all those thousands of witnesses were just hallucinating or something right?
    I never said they nice and fuzzy. You must not know that 18 police were killed and 130 were wounded by snipers as well. So both sides were shooting, right? Or those deaths didn't happen right?




    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    You don't look at this stuff independently. You, and others like you, like to say these things because you want to feel above the fray and somehow smarter than everyone else. But your not, you're just spouting Russian propaganda because you have some beef with western society. Maybe it's because you think you should be entitled to everything free and those who succeed should pay for it, or you think "the man" is holding you down or some other juvenile excuse. I find it fascinating how people like you also discount these news sources when they report something you don't like (for example: Ukraine’s Forces Escalate Attacks Against Protesters, but then dismiss them the moment they put up a story that is contrary to the narrative you want to believe in. This conversation has moved into Conspiracy Theory territory, and there's a sub-forum for that if you wish to indulge your fantasies, as I have no interest in it. I'll allow you the last word, so go ahead and lash out or spout more GRU propaganda, I don't really care.
    Woah, woah.. I do look at this stuff independently have. I don't feel above the fray and never have. I personally think the only people ever innocent in this world are Children until they start paying taxes. Once you start paying taxes to the State/Country (which ever one you may live in) you bare responsibility for it's actions or lack of action.

    Nah.. I've long said it was two sides who made this situation and you can't even admit that.
    Hmm
    EU questions your version..
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Actually I was making more during the Bush years then at any time of Obama.
    I was making even more money during the Clinton years and now during Obama I'm making more money than ever and paying less in taxes. Unemployment is under 5 percent here btw.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    I was making even more money during the Clinton years and now during Obama I'm making more money thsn ever and paying less in taxes.
    I'm making more money now than I did during the Clinton years too! Of course, I was 24 when Clinton left office.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    US was training and using ISIS for Syria, that's all I am saying. ISIS had bigger plans then Syria and the US and NATO allies ignored those ISIS plans because they had the same goal.... Get rid of Al-Assad. There are also NSA documents leaked by Snowden that confirm that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (ISIS Leader) when released by the US was in fact made a US "intel asset". .

    Bin Laden wasn't a CIA agent/asset and never said he was.. so don't assume what I think.



    US had no reason to talk to them and pick and choose who was gonna run what.. if it was truly a Ukrainian people's movement. Sorry, that's interference in the will of the people correct? You wouldn't the EU picking who's gonna be the US President would you? Ukraine was given 2 real choices (Tymoshenko and Poroshenko), both of which the West highly favored and named by Victoria Nuland in that phone call in which she gave approval.. the rest were light weights who no money and access. Hmm.. who's gonna win? Just cause you have an election doesn't mean it's free or fair. North Korea has elections.. wanna know who wins that one? Oh that's right the only one that runs.

    For a Libertarian you are ill-informed on what happen, but to each his or her own.
    Yep! Getting rid of president Assad has caused us once again to compromise our principles.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    One tiny village in the Netherlands called Neerkant in Noord-Brabant has been especially deeply affected by the crash of flight MH17.

    The village has less than 1800 inhabitants and the beloved Wals family was on board of the crashed plane. Mother Nicole, Father Jeroen and their 4 children, Solenn (9), Amèl (12), Jinte (15) and Brett (17) were killed.

    The school that the youngest attended opened it's doors last night for villagers who wanted to talk/support each other, many then walked to the house of the family where lived to leave flowers or light a candle in their memory. The children were friends with a lot of the village children, largely due to either being schoolmates, members of the dance club, volleyball club, scouting or (in the case of the oldest) the soccer club.

    The villagers knew almost certainly that the family had been killed because oldest child Brett had sent out a selfie from him inside the airplane. But it still took a long time before it was officially confirmed.

    All around the Netherlands stories like this are coming out.

    The town of Hilversum was also deeply affected due to three entire families who died in the crash.
    What a tragedy!

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