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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    two international wars and a war on terror has poisoned most americans appetite for foreign conflict.

    the only thing that will validate us getting involved is a proper declaration of war.
    Well, I'm not talking about sending the troops. What I'm proposing a couple of pages back, is truly crippling sanctions against Russia and massive military aid to Ukraine.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Whoa. I don't think the recession coming out of sanctions against Russia would be *that* bad.

    They don't know what the reverberations would be and that's part of what they consider. Nobody saw the 2008 Recession coming, it's was party, party. They won't see the next one coming either, because they don't want to. The world is always precariously positioned to make sudden drastic changes, and that's also the nature of life for us as individuals. We don't see the bullet coming.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Well, I'm not talking about sending the troops. What I'm proposing a couple of pages back, is truly crippling sanctions against Russia and massive military aid to Ukraine.
    i think it is naive to think we are still capable of giving billion dollar amounts of military aid to countries at the drop of a hat.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Yes, that's unfortunately the problem, but it would be a matter of who blinks first. Shutting down the pipelines would hurt Europe, sure, but would also hurt Russia, which has a rather narrow economic model, heavily dependent on gas sales. Like McCain said, Russia is a huge gas station. There is a good chance that Russia would blink first since Europe is a lot more diverse economy.

    I do favor Europe becoming more energy independent. The United States with the fracking initiative is getting so, with more access to natural gas. In Europe environmental concerns are more of a hindrance. Don't read me wrong, I'm for environmental caution, but I think the world is getting so crazy right now that energy independence should trample these concerns.
    Well, you are free to believe what you wish.

    But Russian's are not going to be cold this winter if Europe shuts the gas pipe down.
    But tens of millions of EU citizens might be.

    And which group is going to scream louder to their politicians...especially when all the EU politicians have to do is simply not go along with the sanctions to turn the taps back on?

    Plus, Russians have done without before in their relatively recent history...EU citizens (especially in the west) have not.

    I think the freezing EU families will crack come November long before the somewhat (temporarily) poorer Russians will.


    Finally, Putin does not have to run for re-election until 2018...why would he care if he drops in the polls for a year or two while he finds other buyers for his oil/gas?

    And as I posted earlier, his numbers are skyrocketing despite the sanctions.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/ru...vel-years.aspx
    Last edited by DA60; 07-20-14 at 02:34 AM.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    i think it is naive to think we are still capable of giving billion dollar amounts of military aid to countries at the drop of a hat.
    Who are "we"? The combined NATO forces are simply huge. If NATO as a whole (the United States plus the major NATO players like the UK, France, Germany, Italy) want to supply Ukraine with tanks and fighter jets, Ukraine could crush the Eastern rebellion in days or weeks.

    Provided of course that Russia doesn't interfere... which I think they wouldn't, if NATO showed true resolve - for the sheer fact that NATO outnumbers Russia's military might 6:1. Putin is not suicidal.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Well, you are free to believe what you wish.

    But Russian's are not going to be cold this winter if Europe shuts the gas pipe down.

    But tens of millions of EU citizens might be.

    And which group is going to scream louder to their politicians...especially when all the EU politicians have to do is simply not go along with the sanctions to turn the taps back on?

    Plus, Russians have done without before in their relatively recent history...EU citizens (especially in the west) have not.

    I think the freezing EU families will crack come November long before the somewhat (temporarily) poorer Russians will.

    Which would you care more about...no gas to heat your home/family or a temporary cut in pay (because Russia will undoubtedly find other customers for their gas/oil)?

    I think it's a no brainer for most people.
    But the dependence is not that absolute. Actually the main European countries have much smaller dependence, like the numbers posted above show. Tiny places like Estonia and Latvia have 100% dependence but they've been trying to prepare too. In another thread there were posts about Estonia's new mobile gas refinery on a ship.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Who are "we"? The combined NATO forces are simply huge. If NATO as a whole (the United States plus the major NATO players like the UK, France, Germany, Italy) want to supply Ukraine with tanks and fighter jets, Ukraine could crush the Eastern rebellion in days or weeks.

    Provided of course that Russia doesn't interfere... which I think they wouldn't, if NATO showed true resolve - for the sheer fact that NATO outnumbers Russia's military might 6:1. Putin is not suicidal.
    who knows what Putin is thinking. he unleashes rabid wolves to create unrest in the crimea and grab that territory. now those same wolves are prowling in the eastern ukraine. Putin is engaging in asymmetrical warfare, which we have never been able to counter effectivilly.

    personally i think the only thing that will change the putin's mind is to have him encounter his own gavrillo princip.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    But the dependence is not that absolute. Actually the main European countries have much smaller dependence, like the numbers posted above show. Tiny places like Estonia and Latvia have 100% dependence but they've been trying to prepare too. In another thread there were posts about Estonia's new mobile gas refinery on a ship.
    True, but 36% of Germany's gas comes from Russia. That is the biggest EU country. And you, IMO, cannot just cut off 1/3 of your gas and have no noticeable effect on the economy.

    Plus, as I added to my earlier post,

    Putin does not have to run for re-election until 2018...why would he care if he drops in the polls for a year or two while he finds other buyers for his oil/gas?

    And as I posted earlier, his numbers are skyrocketing despite the sanctions.

    Russian Approval of Putin Soars to Highest Level in Years


    Look, you believe Putin will blink first. I think the EU will.

    We will see who is right.


    Btw, thanks for debating like an intelligent adult...around here that is somewhat rare.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    True, but 36% of Germany's gas comes from Russia. That is the biggest EU country. And you, IMO, cannot just cut off 1/3 of your gas and have no noticeable effect on the economy.

    Plus, as I added to my earlier post,

    Putin does not have to run for re-election until 2018...why would he care if he drops in the polls for a year or two while he finds other buyers for his oil/gas?

    And as I posted earlier, his numbers are skyrocketing despite the sanctions.

    Russian Approval of Putin Soars to Highest Level in Years


    Look, you believe Putin will blink first. I think the EU will.

    We will see who is right.


    Btw, thanks for debating like an intelligent adult...around here that is somewhat rare.
    Hm... the 2018 election is a factor I hadn't thought of. It does indicate that he might blink last. Darn!

    Oh well, if we can't really do much, it's depressing.

    Thank you for your kind words.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    Hm... the 2018 election is a factor I hadn't thought of. It does indicate that he might blink last. Darn!

    Oh well, if we can't really do much, it's depressing.

    Thank you for your kind words.
    You are welcome.

    Thanks for earning them.

    Later.

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