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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The point was, we don't yet know what the ATC's told the pilot because that hasn't been released.
    neither has the flight data recorder.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    neither has the flight data recorder.
    Your point?
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    They would hurt Europe, but America, not so much. Do look up the numbers regarding our trade relationship with Russia as compared to Europe's.

    The Russian-China gas deal is being blown out of proportion. It is a very slow, long term, and sluggish deal.

    I'm talking about immediate impact.

    Russia is still heavily dependent on Europe's purchases, and China can't replace them in short notice. There aren't even enough pipelines for that. The Russia-China deal will only materialize in ways that matter a decade or two from now.

    Yes, I don't doubt that the economic order is changing and will eventually favor the BRICS, but I'm talking about the immediate, short-term resolution of the Ukraine crisis.
    Okay, immediately then.

    Many EU countries completely depend on Russian gas.

    Where are they 'immediately' going to get new supplies if the taps are turned off? Like you said, pipelines take time to build? And where do they build them to? Who will fill that huge void?

    You honestly think EU leaders of countries whose people will suffer should the Russian gas lines be cut will go along with sanctions?

    I don't...not unless they have a political death wish.

    'According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]

    Estonia 100%
    Finland 100%
    Latvia 100%
    Lithuania 100%
    Slovakia 98%
    Bulgaria 92%
    Czech Republic 77.6%
    Greece 76%
    Hungary 60%
    Slovenia 52%
    Austria 49%
    Poland 48.15%
    Croatia 37%
    Germany 36%
    Italy 27%
    Romania 27%
    France 14%
    Belgium 5%'
    Russia in the European energy sector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I actually agree if we can get some multi national support, then sanctions to the degree of making it not worth their effort would be effective.

    I just don't think this event is a large enough catalyst for us to engage in that yet. You've got to remember that the economy is globally linked now and whatever we do to affect, even someone as remote as Russia affects the whole. Raising prices for energy across Europe and the backlash from that could possibly cause our fragile recovery from the 2008 Recession to go backwards. The stock market is way over valued and the real economy not up-ticking like they project it to be.
    I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
    But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

    See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

    Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

    I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

    I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Why does Obama need to respond. This is between Ukraine, eastern Ukraine Russian separatists and Russia. Or are you just so addicted to US interference in every damn thing that happens around the world that you just can't stand to miss a fight?
    Agreed.

    Feels like a urinating contest to me.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Your point?
    the flight date recorder and cockpit voice recorders, (the black boxes) contains flight data that records up to the moment the plane crashes. that data is highly valuable and often contains information that ATC tapes cannot provide: the planes final moments preserved in flight data.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
    But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

    See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

    Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

    I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

    I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.
    two international wars and a war on terror has poisoned most americans appetite for foreign conflict.

    the only thing that will validate us getting involved is a proper declaration of war.
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
    But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

    See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

    Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

    I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

    I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.
    I agree with part of this that events of this nature can draw in other countries, but not just one event.

    The forces that be (top 1%) fear a Recession of that magnitude even more, because without money (confidence) the financial system would essentially collapse. With nobody getting paid, civilization as we know it would end within months. Even basic services would start to be crippled, as roving gangs brutalized citizens for sustenance, like they do now in other war torn or poverty/crime stricken countries.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Okay, immediately then.

    Many EU countries completely depend on Russian gas.

    Where are they 'immediately' going to get new supplies if the taps are turned off? Like you said, pipelines take time to build? And where do they build them to? Who will fill that huge void?

    You honestly think EU leaders of countries whose people will suffer should the Russian gas lines be cut will go along with sanctions?

    I don't...not unless they have a political death wish.

    'According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]

    Estonia 100%
    Finland 100%
    Latvia 100%
    Lithuania 100%
    Slovakia 98%
    Bulgaria 92%
    Czech Republic 77.6%
    Greece 76%
    Hungary 60%
    Slovenia 52%
    Austria 49%
    Poland 48.15%
    Croatia 37%
    Germany 36%
    Italy 27%
    Romania 27%
    France 14%
    Belgium 5%'
    Russia in the European energy sector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes, that's unfortunately the problem, but it would be a matter of who blinks first. Shutting down the pipelines would hurt Europe, sure, but would also hurt Russia, which has a rather narrow economic model, heavily dependent on gas sales. Like McCain said, Russia is a huge gas station. There is a good chance that Russia would blink first since Europe is a lot more diverse economy.

    I do favor Europe becoming more energy independent. The United States with the fracking initiative is getting so, with more access to natural gas. In Europe environmental concerns are more of a hindrance. Don't read me wrong, I'm for environmental caution, but I think the world is getting so crazy right now that energy independence should trample these concerns.

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I agree with part of this that events of this nature can draw in other countries, but not just one event.

    The forces that be (top 1%) fear a Recession of that magnitude even more, because without money (confidence) the financial system would essentially collapse. With nobody getting paid, civilization as we know it would end within months. Even basic services would start to be crippled, as roving gangs brutalized citizens for sustenance, like they do now in other war torn or poverty/crime stricken countries.
    Whoa. I don't think the recession coming out of sanctions against Russia would be *that* bad.

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