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Thread: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

  1. #481
    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    That is all well and good, but one must consider the source.

    The Pentagon, sorry to report, is not really a bastion of truth-telling. That was demonstrated during the 911 Commission proceedings. DoD was often revising and editing its prior testimony. They could not quite get their stories straight.

    So I take what they say with a grain of salt.

    I'm certain the technology exists to read the signatures of launched rockets by satellite sensors, but I'm skeptical of what Pentagon says.
    Sure, I can respect that, but the radar and heat signatures information *together* with the pro-Russian rebels bragging about having shot down a plane on Twitter and then deleting the tweets after it became clear it was a passenger plane, *and* the intercepted phone conversations, *and* the bragging a few days earlier about having acquired a BUK launcher system, *and* their attempts to hinder investigator's access to the site, all make it rather CLEAR that the plane was shot down by pro-Russian rebels.

    It is *EXTREMELY NAIVE* or biased to even consider an alternative.

    I think we all know what happened.

    It very much angers me. At one point I stopped posting here because I was sick and tired of Eastern Ukraine's disorganized, amateur, incompetent uprising, and I said they should clean up their own mess, without any attention from the West.

    Now, they have MURDERED 298 innocents, the overwhelming majority of them, Western citizens.

    Enough is enough. These idiots need to be *crushed*, I'm telling you. And that idiot Putin needs to be brought down as well.

    I'm not advocating for WWIII, but I'm profoundly disgusted at Europe's weak response, all afraid that the economy will suffer if Putin's gas isn't piped to Europe.

    Come on! Haven't you learned anything from WWI and WWII? That appeasing and procrastinating only makes matters worse?

    What is needed at this point is MASSIVE sanctions and blockade of the entire Russian economy, and MASSIVE support for Kiev's forces with MASSIVE transfer of weapons to the Ukraine government to completely annihilate this bunch of idiotic separatists, plus an invitation to Ukraine to become a NATO member, and a CLEAR message to Putin that enough is enough, and that the West is VASTLY more powerful than his country in terms of conventional war and economic measures, and short of a nuclear WWIII he has NO CHANCE IN HELL to prevail over the West, and he should accept defeat, be content that he got Crimea, and retreat.

    This was a regional conflict. Now Russia's idiocy has caused the deaths of innocent citizens of the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Australia, etc., etc., plus 100 top level researchers who were trying to help humankind in the fight against the lethal HIV virus.

    It's time to STOP this madness and teach a lesson to these imbeciles, that the West will not watch idle while another planet-wide disaster evolves like in WWI and WWII.

    I hope the leaders of our Western nations - starting with Mr. President of the United States (who at least is calling for it; even worse are the European leaders) - develop some backbone and crush Putin's ambitions before more damage is done.

    I used to have a more balanced view, thinking that NATO had provoked Putin into a paranoid position by its expansion, thinking that Kiev was iffy with its ties to extreme right-wing elements, etc.

    But the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 has changed my mind completely. Now I want Putin stopped and these pro-Russian separatists crushed.

    Mr. Putin, be assured that the international mood has changed.

    Your support for these amateur imbeciles has doomed you. Retreat while you can. The West is now angry, and our stick is way bigger than yours.
    Last edited by GreatNews2night; 07-19-14 at 11:54 PM.

  2. #482
    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    My recipe to end the crisis:

    The European Union and the United States should immediately crank up the sanctions against Russia to a complete economic blockade. No dealings with Gazprom, no access to any financial markets, no arms trade, no nothing. A full shut-down, regardless of how the European economy might suffer. Be assured that Russia's economy would suffer more and they would blink first. This would only be lifted if Russia completely sealed its border with Ukraine, not allowing any Russians to enter the Ukrainian territory to help the rebels, and unequivocally stated that Russia does not support the uprising and will not annex any parts of Eastern Ukraine or support its federalization or independence. The rebels should be completely isolated and disallowed, for the Western sanctions to be lifted.

    NATO should lend to the Ukrainian government OVERWHELMING military means (something like 5,000 advanced tanks and modern weaponry, and 1,000 fighter jets) to completely annihilate the pro-Russian separatists and retake all regions now controlled by the rebels. NATO assistance to operate these advanced weapons should be extensively provided. I'm aware that you can't suddenly train 1,000 Ukrainian pilots to fly advanced fighter jets. Then, I'd even consider that NATO should provide the pilots themselves, only, flying under Ukrainian flag.

    Then NATO should extend membership to Ukraine and make it clear to Russia that any incursion into NATO territory would be met with overwhelming response. I'd leave Crimea alone. For all purposes, Crimea is now Russian and the Western response shouldn't include any attempt to change that. It's a lost cause.

    ---------

    That would do it.

    Will it happen?

    Probably not because our leaders are too weak. However, the outrage over the downing of the passenger plane might at least foster a response a bit closer to that than what we've been seeing.
    Last edited by GreatNews2night; 07-20-14 at 12:18 AM.

  3. #483
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Why would you fly over that area?
    Exactly my question. I never cease to be astounded by the actions of so many despite their supposedly becoming more intelligent and educated. It is a war zone.

    Malaysia Airlines won't have a problem though, some will never learn, or they refuse to change their patterns of behavior out of a false sense of pride.

    Korean, Emirates, New Zealand Air and others altered their flight plans long ago.

  4. #484
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    Exactly my question. I never cease to be astounded by the actions of so many despite their supposedly becoming more intelligent and educated. It is a war zone.

    Malaysia Airlines won't have a problem though, some will never learn, or they refuse to change their patterns of behavior out of a false sense of pride.

    Korean, Emirates, New Zealand Air and others altered their flight plans long ago.

    They were flying according to the NOTAM, above 32k, just like many other airlines that day.
    "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    "A stream of falsehoods is flowing out of Kiev regarding what is happening," said Lavrov, "They are accusing everyone and everything except for themselves."

    A Western diplomatic source in Moscow said it would be "very difficult" to convince the international opinion that the separatists were not behind the crash.

    Russia has already found some unofficial support from China, where the state news agency said in a commentary that officials from the U.S., Australia and other Western countries had jumped to conclusions in pointing their fingers at the rebels in eastern Ukraine or blaming Russia."

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ia/503755.html




    //


    Yeah I had seen China's comments earlier. Everybody is putting out disinformation, but one thing is certain. There was a tug of war between the West and Russia over Ukraine for several years, negotiations in the end led Kiev to believe that they would get a better deal from Russia. The West didn't like that and sponsored, supported and facilitated a coup installing a pro-Western government and now they've got a cat fight with Russia who won the negotiations.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    My recipe to end the crisis:

    The European Union and the United States should immediately crank up the sanctions against Russia to a complete economic blockade. No dealings with Gazprom, no access to any financial markets, no arms trade, no nothing. A full shut-down, regardless of how the European economy might suffer. Be assured that Russia's economy would suffer more and they would blink first. This would only be lifted if Russia completely sealed its border with Ukraine, not allowing any Russians to enter the Ukrainian territory to help the rebels, and unequivocally stated that Russia does not support the uprising and will not annex any parts of Eastern Ukraine or support its federalization or independence. The rebels should be completely isolated and disallowed, for the Western sanctions to be lifted.

    NATO should lend to the Ukrainian government OVERWHELMING military means (something like 5,000 advanced tanks and modern weaponry, and 1,000 fighter jets) to completely annihilate the pro-Russian separatists and retake all regions now controlled by the rebels. NATO assistance to operate these advanced weapons should be extensively provided. I'm aware that you can't suddenly train 1,000 Ukrainian pilots to fly advanced fighter jets. Then, I'd even consider that NATO should provide the pilots themselves, only, flying under Ukrainian flag.

    Then NATO should extend membership to Ukraine and make it clear to Russia that any incursion into NATO territory would be met with overwhelming response. I'd leave Crimea alone. For all purposes, Crimea is now Russian and the Western response shouldn't include any attempt to change that. It's a lost cause.

    ---------

    That would do it.

    Will it happen?

    Probably not because our leaders are too weak. However, the outrage over the downing of the passenger plane might at least foster a response a bit closer to that than what we've been seeing.

    That's like holding down the arms of a big angry man and saying, "I'll let your arms loose if you don't kick me." Most likely, he's going to kick you to force you to let his arms loose.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    They were flying according to the NOTAM, above 32k, just like many other airlines that day.
    Well, obviously they were wrong, and those other airlines were wrong too.
    Why are you trying to justify their boneheaded decision?
    The airlines that changed their patterns way ahead of this were obviously the ones that were right about it.
    Do you seriously say otherwise?

    You know, the simplest thing - as a parent, my son was traveling in Russia at the time, and then in Eastern Europe. I told him, "make sure you stay way clear of Ukraine." It's called common sense. Why in the hell these handful of airlines who kept flying that corridor didn't have a healthy dose of common sense?

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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatNews2night View Post
    People who say calling the incident a missile strike is jumping to conclusions are likely to be influenced by their own political agenda. In my understanding, the United States has the capability of tracking missile strikes from satellite surveillance and radar, and this is how Washington knows that it was indeed a surface to air missile. This seems to have been confirmed by radar and heat signatures.

    Pretending otherwise is deliberate political misinformation and absurd denial.
    Really now? Believing everything that comes out of Washington could be described similarly!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  9. #489
    Educator GreatNews2night's Avatar
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    That's like holding down the arms of a big angry man and saying, "I'll let your arms loose if you don't kick me." Most likely, he's going to kick you to force you to let his arms loose.
    No, you didn't get my point. I'm advocating for kicking the big angry man with overwhelming and disabling force, instead of holding down his arms.

  10. #490
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    Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What happens when time runs out? A strongly worded letter?
    No! We'll just nuke them so that you can quite bitching.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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