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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

But then it's good politics never to let a disaster go to waste. MH17 290 civilian deaths = outrage. Gaza incursions 340+ civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?

You think that it might have something to do with the hundreds of rockets Hama is launching into Israel from Gaza?

Heard and NPR interview with the Israeli ambassador, and he commented that they take great measures to warn the civilians before bombing a location. Drop a disabled bomb or something that won't explode on the house's roof (knocking on the roof), phone calls, text messages.
Jerusalem (CNN) -- It's become another military euphemism, along with "collateral damage" and "friendly fire."

The "knock on the roof" is the Israeli military's warning for civilians before it fires on a building and is being used extensively as Israeli airstrikes target Hamas sites in Operation Protective Edge.

The Israeli Air Force developed the technique in 2009 as a way to warn civilians in Gaza to leave buildings it has identified as locations where Hamas keeps ammunition, a rocket stash or command post. But it is a controversial policy that has been criticized by human rights groups.

The procedure generally begins with a phone call to the occupants to leave a building, according to Relik Shafir, a retired brigadier general in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and a former fighter pilot.

Such places, he says, are often under constant surveillance, and the IDF has a sense of how many people live there, and how many leave.

If it is still unclear whether a building is occupied, a missile that carries little or no explosive load is aimed at the roof of a building. The impact is felt, but it rarely causes casualties.

"It's meant to get people to take us seriously," says Shafir.

There is no standard gap between the delivery of the "dummy" missile and fully armed missiles, says Shafir. It can be minutes or even hours. It depends on how important the target is. But there are hundreds or even thousands of such places in Gaza, chosen by Hamas precisely because they complicate targeting.

One dramatic example of the "knock on the roof" appeared on social media Sunday. Distributed by the Gaza-based Watania news agency, it showed at first the impact of an unarmed rocket or missile on the roof of a house. Smoke rose from the roof; curtains billowed from an open window.

Some time later -- Watania says about 15 minutes -- two missiles slammed into the building, blowing out the facade and sending debris and thick smoke across a wide area.

It's not clear whether the occupants of the house had heeded the warning -- it may have been empty -- but no one was hurt.
Israeli military's 'knock on roof' warnings criticized - CNN.com

So I think it's an apples to oranges comparison there.

The passengers on the airliner weren't actively engaged in shooting at anyone or firing rockets at anyone, or harboring anyone who did, hence the outrage at their deaths. Gaza residents, well, not so much.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Similar to them (the Ruskies) shooting down the Korean Airlines flight. But Obama's 20 seconds he spent talking about it pales in comparison to Reagan's addressing the nation back then. It's just more confirmation for Putin that Obama is a paper tiger, and is no one to be worried about. God, he must have been jumping for joy when we re-elected the community organizer.

Obama on Friday has changed tone and significantly upped his approach, if you haven't noticed:

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-hits-re...o-malaysia-airlines-shoot-down-195617147.html

President Obama on Friday called the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 an “outrage of unspeakable proportions,” declared it a “wake-up call” for timid European leaders, and all but laid blame for the tragedy directly at the doorstep of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Obama’s blunt language, delivered in the White House briefing room from behind a lectern with the presidential seal, offered a stark contrast to his muddled public handling of the disaster a day earlier

The important point is that he berated the European leaders for not acting in a united front with the United States on sanctions, which counters Putin's strategy of dividing Europe and the US. He also squarely put the responsibility for this on Putin and called it outrageous.

Russians who do have common sense have noticed it. This is a very interesting read and rather obligatory to get the full view on this; I highly recommend it:

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-rebels-shot-down-mh17-russia-could-reap-144258055.html

Here is an excerpt, but do read the whole thing:

"If it turns out the rebels did this, and Putin does not strongly condemn them, there will be much more pressure on Russia," says Sergei Strokan, foreign affairs columnist for the Moscow daily Kommersant. "We keep talking about this 'information war' that's going on, well, Russia will lose it irrevocably.... If Putin does condemn them, he will have to take more concrete steps. There are probably some hard-core rebels who will go on fighting even if Russia seals the borders and disavows them. But without the support of big brother, the insurrection in its present form will probably end," says Mr. Strokan.

"But in the event Russia doesn't take convincing steps, Putin's whole strategy of dividing the US against Europe in the sanctions debate will fail spectacularly," he says. "This tragedy has shocked and galvanized Europe, and really tough sectoral sanctions and a united front against us are what we can look forward to."

And mind you, a Russian is saying this:

However, circumstantial evidence is piling up that rebels not only obtained at least one BUK mobile air defense system, but that they bragged about it in widely published Russian media reports late last month. Pro-Kremlin propagandist Sergei Kurginyan, who has been in close touch with rebel leaders, claimed a few days ago that he had arranged for "competent people" to be dispatched from Russia to teach the rebels how to use the weapon.

So, at least some of the Russian media (probably the anti-Putin segments) is well aware that regardless of how the rebels obtained the Buk launcher, they wouldn't be able to operate it without Russian assistance, and the blame will fall square on Russia no matter what.

This is indeed a game changer.

Do expect more coordinated and united action between the United States and Europe, against Russia.

Putin's position is likely to become less and less sustainable.
 
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Not questioning your race at all. I merely asked for confirmation that you are indeed black. It's not that tough a question to answer.

And now you're going to question my race!...LOL!

IOW, anyone who crticizes Obama is racist and any black person that doesn't kiss his ass must not be black. Gotcha, sport!


How the **** is this in any possibly conceivable way releated to the subject?!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

But then it's good politics never to let a disaster go to waste. MH17 290 civilian deaths = outrage. Gaza incursions 340+ civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?

I don't think you have a fair comparison. MH17 was a commercial airliner that was shot down at an altitude of 33,000ft. Although many innocent people have been killed in Gaza, do you really see the incursion, wherein Israel has wiped out nearly 50% of Hamas' terrorist infrastructure, to be analogous to a plane of tourists being plucked out of the sky?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

But then it's good politics never to let a disaster go to waste. MH17 290 civilian deaths = outrage. Gaza incursions 340+ civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?

Ironic post of the year.

statistically low school shooting per year = outrage. Inner city killing (1,254 shooting victims in Chicago for 2014) civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?

From a poster known to only focus on the first.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I don't think you have a fair comparison. MH17 was a commercial airliner that was shot down at an altitude of 33,000ft. Although many innocent people have been killed in Gaza, do you really see the incursion, wherein Israel has wiped out nearly 50% of Hamas' terrorist infrastructure, to be analogous to a plane of tourists being plucked out of the sky?


There is cellphone chatter that the Ukranian Separatists knew MH 17 was a passenger plane with many people on board. The Separatists fired the missile to get attention for their cause. MH 17 posed no threat to the Separatists. All are the result of armed conflict.

Who started it? Who could have extended forgiveness? How can anyone help any party save face, and back off?

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How the **** is this in any possibly conceivable way releated to the subject?!

Aren't you aware that everything that happens in the world that is bad is Barack Obama's fault? Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Ironic post of the year.

statistically low school shooting per year = outrage. Inner city killing (1,254 shooting victims in Chicago for 2014) civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?

From a poster known to only focus on the first.

There are posters here who think everything that happens is either the fault of the United States or the fault of Israel. Sometimes both.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Well, he is a republicon and probably knows what he's talking about, I mean, most seem (R's) to be authorities on defense systems by what we hear in the MSM these days.



Senator plans to ask FAA for missile defense systems on commercial airliners - The Washington Post

If this guy was a 'former naval intelligence officer' then we are in more trouble than I thought. Chaff dispensers on civilian aircraft? Jesus! If that stuff worked effectively we wouldn't have had 600 prisoners sitting in the Hanoi Hilton at the end of the Vietnam war.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

There is cellphone chatter that the Ukranian Separatists knew MH 17 was a passenger plane with many people on board. The Separatists fired the missile to get attention for their cause. MH 17 posed no threat to the Separatists. All are the result of armed conflict.

Who started it? Who could have extended forgiveness? How can anyone help any party save face, and back off?

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Such an act would not earn them sympathetic attention that would advance their cause, only damage it, and diminish Moscow's ability to continue to support them. I don't know why that theory keeps being advanced.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Such an act would not earn them sympathetic attention that would advance their cause, only damage it, and diminish Moscow's ability to continue to support them. I don't know why that theory keeps being advanced.


I personally have make mis-judgements in the spur of the moment. It was undoubtedly well received by Separatist supporters, to shoot down a Transport plane and a fighter trainer, so maybe they felt they were on a roll.


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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I personally have make mis-judgements in the spur of the moment. It was undoubtedly well received by Separatist supporters, to shoot down a Transport plane and a fighter trainer, so maybe they felt they were on a roll.


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Got it! I agree with you that they would be jubilant thinking that they had dropped another Ukrainian military aircraft, but then ****ting a brick when they discovered that it was a civilian aircraft, knowing damn well the trouble they would be in we're it to be confirmed. Still yet, nothing has been proven and Kiev had both the means and motive to drop it themselves.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Dutch primeminister has called Putin and told him:

In a news conference on Saturday, Mr Rutte said he had had an "intense" phone call with Mr Putin.

"I told him 'time is running out for you to show the world that you have good intentions','' Mr Rutte said.
Bam! That`s he language I want to hear from world leaders right now!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Meanwhile the Chinese have said that Australian and US commentary has been "rash"!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I personally have make mis-judgements in the spur of the moment. It was undoubtedly well received by Separatist supporters, to shoot down a Transport plane and a fighter trainer, so maybe they felt they were on a roll.


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There is a big difference between shooting down low flying aircraft with shoulder launched weapons and the way MH17 came down.

The former is traditional military tactics, the second not so much.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

There is a big difference between shooting down low flying aircraft with shoulder launched weapons and the way MH17 came down.

The former is traditional military tactics, the second not so much.


If MH 17 was shot down by mistake, Putin could be expected to claim it was a mistake. Since Putin is trying to blame Kiev for the hostilities in the Ukraine, as leading to MH 17 getting shot down, then that indicates Putin believes MH 17 was shot down deliberately.



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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

If MH 17 was shot down by mistake, Putin could be expected to claim it was a mistake. Since Putin is trying to blame Kiev for the hostilities in the Ukraine, as leading to MH 17 getting shot down, then that indicates Putin knows MH 17 was shot down deliberately.



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Possibly so. I haven't heard that Putin has even agreed that it was brought down by a SAM. It seems unlikely that anybody knows FOR CERTAIN what brought this plane down. It could also make sense that Putin would be blaming Kiev sense they seem to know for a fact that it was downed by a SAM. Sometimes months and years go by in such investigations before an official conclusive report comes out. You made a good point about TWA 800, where over 100 witness saw what they described as a missile, some what they believed to be a missile coming up from the ground, and yet the "official" report was a fuel tank explosion. In this case, we have few or no witnesses claiming to have seen a missile strike the plane yet Kiev, and Washington have confirmed such, ALREADY??
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Possibly so. I haven't heard that Putin has even agreed that it was brought down by a SAM. It seems unlikely that anybody knows FOR CERTAIN what brought this plane down. It could also make sense that Putin would be blaming Kiev sense they seem to know for a fact that it was downed by a SAM. Sometimes months and years go by in such investigations before an official conclusive report comes out. You made a good point about TWA 800, where over 100 witness saw what they described as a missile, some what they believed to be a missile coming up from the ground, and yet the "official" report was a fuel tank explosion. In this case, we have few or no witnesses claiming to have seen a missile strike the plane yet Kiev, and Washington have confirmed such, ALREADY??

"Russian President Vladimir Putin, of course, is not taking any of this lying down. He fired back at the mounting allegations Thursday, saying “this tragedy would not have occurred if there were peace in that country, or in any case, if hostilities had not resumed in southeast Ukraine. And certainly, the government over whose territory it occurred is responsible for this terrible tragedy.” The Russian media, almost all of which is under Kremlin control, is vigorously promoting the narrative that either Ukrainian military jets shot down the plane or it simply fell apart in the sky."

Read more: Malaysia Flight: The Plane that Radicalized Ukraine - POLITICO Magazine


Malaysia Flight: The Plane that Radicalized Ukraine - POLITICO Magazine


The US knows it was a missile because Satelite images show a heat trace of a missile.


The answers regarding TWA 800 can be found on pages 257-259 of the NTSB's report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2000/AAR0003.pdf

With respect to the Malaysian airliner, The Los Angeles Times reported:

Advanced U.S. satellites played a key role in the determination by intelligence officials that a surface-to-air missile shot down a Malaysian jetliner over Ukraine on Thursday...

The U.S. Air Force has satellites in high-Earth orbit that use infrared sensors to detect heat from missile and booster plumes against Earth's background. Called the Defense Support Program, the system provides early warning for intercontinental ballistic missile launches.


High-tech spycraft tracked missile's path to Malaysia Airlines jet - LA Times




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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Possibly so. I haven't heard that Putin has even agreed that it was brought down by a SAM. It seems unlikely that anybody knows FOR CERTAIN what brought this plane down. It could also make sense that Putin would be blaming Kiev sense they seem to know for a fact that it was downed by a SAM. Sometimes months and years go by in such investigations before an official conclusive report comes out. You made a good point about TWA 800, where over 100 witness saw what they described as a missile, some what they believed to be a missile coming up from the ground, and yet the "official" report was a fuel tank explosion. In this case, we have few or no witnesses claiming to have seen a missile strike the plane yet Kiev, and Washington have confirmed such, ALREADY??


"A stream of falsehoods is flowing out of Kiev regarding what is happening," said Lavrov, "They are accusing everyone and everything except for themselves."

A Western diplomatic source in Moscow said it would be "very difficult" to convince the international opinion that the separatists were not behind the crash.

Russia has already found some unofficial support from China, where the state news agency said in a commentary that officials from the U.S., Australia and other Western countries had jumped to conclusions in pointing their fingers at the rebels in eastern Ukraine or blaming Russia."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...-of-propaganda-war-against-russia/503755.html




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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Its reality.

Reality is something some people ain't familiar with, I won't mention names here.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Reality is something some people ain't familiar with, I won't mention names here.

Personal attack proves my point.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

People who say calling the incident a missile strike is jumping to conclusions are likely to be influenced by their own political agenda. In my understanding, the United States has the capability of tracking missile strikes from satellite surveillance and radar, and this is how Washington knows that it was indeed a surface to air missile. This seems to have been confirmed by radar and heat signatures.

Pretending otherwise is deliberate political misinformation and absurd denial.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Personal attack proves my point.

Which was that the military won't shoot down civilian aircraft? I wouldn't hold my breath on that one if I were you.
 
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