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New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy[W:8]

Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

MACS-24 said:
Okay, who ordered the test and why? Is it because she had given birth. Does given birth now automatically give consent to search and seizure? If they "asked" for permission, was it while she was heavily doped up (legally) for delivery (of sound mind)? If permission is before hand, that's a trap. She has to deliver. That's the problem I have.

If they can't make a wise choice to stay away from meth to begin with they certainly won't figure in the possibility of becoming pregnant.

Meth is bad. Let's try to help the women First then deal with possible pregnancies. For this it's 'let's wait until she has a baby then we will intervene'. More damage is done by this method.
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I somewhat agree with you, that women (everyone, really) need help with addiction. Thing is, there are places out there that help. You have to want help, though, to get it. There are scores of addiction counselors in Knoxville, and she could have gotten help there, if she wanted it. But you can't force someone to get help, even if they are pregnant. You can only threaten them with incarceration if they continue down the path they are on. She chose to go down the path she was on, and now she is paying the penalty for it, and it's possible that the baby is as well.
 
Ikari said:
It makes sense, it's pretty damaging. However, essentially you opened the door for prosecuting pregnant women for drinking or smoking or eating poorly, etc.
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I know. It's a tough call. I think smoking will eventually be prosecutable anyway, because smokers are so demonized now. Alcohol? Look at the Native American population, and the effects of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Drinking while pregnant is definitely a problem.

What is supposed to be done to the mothers who refuse to protect the babies they are carrying? It's opening a door that people don't want opened. I see that. But I also see that somebody has to protect the health of the child she is carrying, if she won't protect it.
 
Superfly said:
New Mother Charged With Assault for Using Meth During Pregnancy - NBC News

My thoughts are, if she hadn't been using illegal drugs to start with, she wouldn't have been arrested.

And can we talk about the arrest, and not turn this into a pro-life/pro-choice argument?
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I'm not in any way a bleeding heart liberal, but I fail to see any rationale or benefit to charging a meth addict with assault on a child she just gave birth to. A meth addict doesn't choose a meth addiction as a means to assault her developing child - this woman cannot be proven guilty, in my view, of rationally knowing that her addiction was going to harm her child. An addict's brain does not make those upper level brain decisions when desperate for a fix.

Since she gave birth to the child, I'd like to know how she managed to carry the child to term without anyone actually knowing she was pregnant and if there was medical care involved, even if just some kind of street clinic, those medical professionals should have had her swept off the street and into a facility to ensure the child she was carrying couldn't be further harmed.

Bottom line, for me - get the child all the care and support he/she needs and get the mom some help, if she wants it, but she gets nowhere near the child again until such time as her life has turned around, if it can be.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

Superfly said:
I somewhat agree with you, that women (everyone, really) need help with addiction. Thing is, there are places out there that help. You have to want help, though, to get it. There are scores of addiction counselors in Knoxville, and she could have gotten help there, if she wanted it. But you can't force someone to get help, even if they are pregnant. You can only threaten them with incarceration if they continue down the path they are on. She chose to go down the path she was on, and now she is paying the penalty for it, and it's possible that the baby is as well.
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I definitely agree on wanting to get help but this law is in no way helping to 'encourage' a user to get help. More likely babies thrown out/flushed away. Look at getting tough on pot. Only thing it solved was increasing privatized prisons bottom line and razing felon totals. I seriously doubt many quit because of increased penalties and they only 'hurt' themselves. They just became more careful users.

Additionally, like CJ mentions, where was intervention before she went full term (or did they just wait so they could charge her?)
 
Superfly said:
I know. It's a tough call. I think smoking will eventually be prosecutable anyway, because smokers are so demonized now. Alcohol? Look at the Native American population, and the effects of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Drinking while pregnant is definitely a problem.

What is supposed to be done to the mothers who refuse to protect the babies they are carrying? It's opening a door that people don't want opened. I see that. But I also see that somebody has to protect the health of the child she is carrying, if she won't protect it.
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So long as there's abortion, I don't see what one can do legally. The unborn is not a protected class, it's not considered human, it's considered property. How can you assault property? It cannot be property or human depending on how you measure it, it's not an electron.
 
Ikari said:
So long as there's abortion, I don't see what one can do legally. The unborn is not a protected class, it's not considered human, it's considered property. How can you assault property? It cannot be property or human depending on how you measure it, it's not an electron.
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It's a whole bunch o' electrons :mrgreen:
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

As someone who takes in babies who have been exposed to meth, cocaine, heroine...etc I say about time!!! These kids end up having lifelong effects and we the taxpayers will be the ones footing the bill for their medical care. Meth( from what I've learned) is the hardest drug to get off of. It's not like they're going to the slammer for years. I believe it's a misdemeanor only punishable for up to a year. Anyway, it should be a crime to medically jack up your child purposefully!
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

I think prosecuting the mother is good. This will most likely not result in jail for her, but she will be forced into a treatment program, where, hopefully, she can get the monkey off her back.

Normally, I would say that, as long as she is harming nobody else, what she does is her own business. But in this case, she was harming someone else - Her child. Legally, the courts have found that fetuses do have life after a specific amount of time in the womb - Usually 20 weeks. On that basis, then she has assaulted another person.

Let me add that, where it comes to drugs, I feel that I can speak with authority, as I am a drug addict. This week I celebrated my 29th year of being drug free, but I will always be an addict. And I know what drugs do.... Firsthand. IMHO, this was a good decision, and it may end up saving the mother's life, as well as the lives of any future children she may have. My bust, in July of 1985, definitely saved my life.
 
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Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

MACS-24 said:
I definitely agree on wanting to get help but this law is in no way helping to 'encourage' a user to get help. More likely babies thrown out/flushed away. Look at getting tough on pot. Only thing it solved was increasing privatized prisons bottom line and razing felon totals. I seriously doubt many quit because of increased penalties and they only 'hurt' themselves. They just became more careful users.

Additionally, like CJ mentions, where was intervention before she went full term (or did they just wait so they could charge her?)
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I've already addressed where you said this before -- if she doesn't want help, she's not going to get it. There are many places she could have gotten help in Knoxville if she wanted it, but clearly she did not want help. You cannot help an addict until they are ready to be helped.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

danarhea said:
I think prosecuting the mother is good. This will most likely not result in jail for her, but she will be forced into a treatment program, where, hopefully, she can get the monkey off her back.

Normally, I would say that, as long as she is harming nobody else, what she does is her own business. But in this case, she was harming someone else - Her child. Legally, the courts have found that fetuses do have life after a specific amount of time in the womb - Usually 20 weeks. On that basis, then she has assaulted another person.

Let me add that, where it comes to drugs, I feel that I can speak with authority, as I am a drug addict. This week I celebrated my 29th year of being drug free, but I will always be an addict. And I know what drugs do.... Firsthand. IMHO, this was a good decision, and it may end up saving the mother's life, as well as the lives of any future children she may have. My bust, in July of 1985, definitely saved my life.
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Well done, Dana. That's fantastic.
 
Superfly said:
New Mother Charged With Assault for Using Meth During Pregnancy - NBC News

My thoughts are, if she hadn't been using illegal drugs to start with, she wouldn't have been arrested.

And can we talk about the arrest, and not turn this into a pro-life/pro-choice argument?
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My thought is that as long as pregnant women are liable for criminal charges if they carry a fetus to term while addicted to alcohol, drugs, or even tobacco, the abortion rate in such jurisdictions will go way up. The best action would be to set aside appropriations for addicted women who discover they are pregnant to have medical care and rehab facilities available to assist them is controlling the substance abuse to assure a healthy infant.

Everybody wins.
 
DiAnna said:
My thought is that as long as pregnant women are liable for criminal charges if they carry a fetus to term while addicted to alcohol, drugs, or even tobacco, the abortion rate in such jurisdictions will go way up. The best action would be to set aside appropriations for addicted women who discover they are pregnant to have medical care and rehab facilities available to assist them is controlling the substance abuse to assure a healthy infant.

Everybody wins.
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But what if they don't want to go?
 
Superfly said:
But what if they don't want to go?
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That makes it tough, no doubt about it. There is no way I could ever really accept incarcerating pregnant women solely because their substance abuse may harm the fetus, especially since some substances like alcohol, tobacco, and even marijuana in some areas, are perfectly legal. If they could get free medical care, rehab assistance, they may be more likely to take advantage of it, but if they don't?

Unless what they are doing would be illegal even if they were not pregnant, I'm very much against them being persecuted simply because they are pregnant.
 
DiAnna said:
That makes it tough, no doubt about it. There is no way I could ever really accept incarcerating pregnant women solely because their substance abuse may harm the fetus, especially since some substances like alcohol, tobacco, and even marijuana in some areas, are perfectly legal. If they could get free medical care, rehab assistance, they may be more likely to take advantage of it, but if they don't?

Unless what they are doing would be illegal even if they were not pregnant, I'm very much against them being persecuted simply because they are pregnant.
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Right. Who knows - meth is illegal, so maybe they popped her because of that? I have to wonder if she'd drank wine while pregnant, or smoked a joint while pregnant, if she would have been arrested.
 
What about women that smoke during pregnancy? Do other drugs? Drink alcohol?
 
I think it's dangerous to label this as an assault. It leaves the door open for other types of charges to be laid on anyone who harms a fetus intentionally or not.

If you a kill a pregnant woman in a car accident, is 2 counts of vehicular manslaughter or just one?
If you kill a pregnant woman in self defense, is it one manslaughter charge and one murder charge?
If a pregnant woman goes to a party, has 2-3 glasses of wine, slips and loses her baby is it criminal negligence?

Yeah, this is a pretty slippery slope we'll go down if this is considered assault. It's better to simply label it as child endangerment.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

WCH said:
Let me tell you a story Pete.

I had a relationship with a woman back in my 20s who ended up getting pregnant and wanted to give the baby up for adoption.

She had a meth habit that extended well into the pregnancy. When the baby was born, she has blisters all over her body and several other reactions to the meth use.

It wasn't an occasional glass of wine or living in unhealthy air quality, it was purposeful. You might be addicted to a substance but, you're fully aware of the fact that you're pregnant and that you are still using.

Had that law been in effect back then, I would absolutely think she should have been charged.

FWIW it's not a local law. 38 states have some sort of fetal protection laws on the books.

Fetal Homicide State Laws
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So let me get this straight because you got a woman pregnant in your 20s...(I noticed the passive voice) who used drugs which means that was part of your culture. And now you are lecturing us. Hmmmmmmmmmm
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

Sababa said:
So let me get this straight because you got a woman pregnant in your 20s...(I noticed the passive voice) who used drugs which means that was part of your culture. And now you are lecturing us. Hmmmmmmmmmm
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Why, sure. The voice of the sadder-but-wiser elder is worth paying attention to. Not that anybody ever does; that's the hubris of youth. ;)
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

Sababa said:
So let me get this straight because you got a woman pregnant in your 20s...(I noticed the passive voice) who used drugs which means that was part of your culture. And now you are lecturing us. Hmmmmmmmmmm
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Hey if you won't listen to someone who has walked the walk, who will you listen to? Yes I was a user also.

BTW I don't believe I lecturing anyone...just telling my story.
 
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Hatuey said:
I think it's dangerous to label this as an assault. It leaves the door open for other types of charges to be laid on anyone who harms a fetus intentionally or not.

If you a kill a pregnant woman in a car accident, is 2 counts of vehicular manslaughter or just one?
If you kill a pregnant woman in self defense, is it one manslaughter charge and one murder charge?
If a pregnant woman goes to a party, has 2-3 glasses of wine, slips and loses her baby is it criminal negligence?

Yeah, this is a pretty slippery slope we'll go down if this is considered assault. It's better to simply label it as child endangerment.
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This all started with the abundance of crack babies.

Crack Babies: The Worst Threat is Mom Herself

I think assault charges are appropriate.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

WCH said:
Hey if you won't listen to someone who has walked the walk, who will you listen to? Yes I was a user also.
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It takes a person who has come to terms with their addiction to admit something like that on a website. I won't let anybody liberal or conservative attack you over it.

2 years clean next month.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

Hatuey said:
It takes a person who has come to terms with their addiction to admit something like that on a website. I won't let anybody liberal or conservative attack you over it.

2 years clean next month.
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Thanks. It hard not to look like an asshole when you're trying to help people not make the same mistakes you made. :)
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

WCH said:
Thanks. It hard not to look like an asshole when you're trying to help people not make the same mistakes you made. :)
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I still don't think it's necessary to escalate it to assault because of the possible ramifications of such a charge. A better measure would be to give a stiffer penalty.
 
Re: New Mother Charged with Assault for using Meth during Pregnancy

Hatuey said:
I still don't think it's necessary to escalate it to assault because of the possible ramifications of such a charge. A better measure would be to give a stiffer penalty.
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Do you know what the actual level of assault and penalty are? [I couldn't find it]

Laws concerning endangerment and cruelty to children are pretty stiff already.
 
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