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Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

Having said that, it would be irresponsible of the Americans not to spy on such a dangerous loos cannon as Germany has been.

LOL, I am not German, and do not as such have a dog in this hunt, but that is the most absurdly bizarre concept I have yet encountered on these pages. I should be most interested to learn of your reasons for regarding modern Germany as a 'loose cannon'.

AFIK, the Federal Republic of Germany is one of the most responsible and successful nations on earth. It is considerably more highly regarded across the world than is the United States, or even the United Kingdom.

To regard roughly 12 years (1933-1945) of the history of the German peoples - spanning over a thousand years - as defining the national character in perpetuity, is inaccurate to the extent of suggesting racial bias. It would be as logical to regard Abou Ghraib, or the My Lai massacre, as typifying the American character.

The German contributions to western civilisation - from philosophy, music, engineering, etc. so far eclipses those of Johnny-come-lately migrant societies as to not warrant further consideration. We have the motor car because of Germans, we have the printing press because of the Germans and English, and we have the like of Beethoven, Mozart, and Mahler because of the Germanic people. We also have the English language because of Germanic culture.
 
LOL, I am not German, and do not as such have a dog in this hunt, but that is the most absurdly bizarre concept I have yet encountered on these pages. I should be most interested to learn of your reasons for regarding modern Germany as a 'loose cannon'.

AFIK, the Federal Republic of Germany is one of the most responsible and successful nations on earth. It is considerably more highly regarded across the world than is the United States, or even the United Kingdom.

To regard roughly 12 years (1933-1945) of the history of the German peoples - spanning over a thousand years - as defining the national character in perpetuity, is inaccurate to the extent of suggesting racial bias. It would be as logical to regard Abou Ghraib, or the My Lai massacre, as typifying the American character.

The German contributions to western civilisation - from philosophy, music, engineering, etc. so far eclipses those of Johnny-come-lately migrant societies as to not warrant further consideration. We have the motor car because of Germans, we have the printing press because of the Germans and English, and we have the like of Beethoven, Mozart, and Mahler because of the Germanic people. We also have the English language because of Germanic culture.

One reason for its good name and success of which you speak is exactly the irresponsibility of the country's international politics, that you obviously do not know in very much detail. But as you say, you have no dog in the race and maybe therefore no real reason to put in the necessary effort. Homilies about Beethoven and Mahler and the benefic influence of German on the English language is cute, but hardly a substitute for knowledge of recent history.
 
I would have secured the border long ago and not advertised free food. The feds have got the northern border sealed tight, which is much longer (and where Canadians now enjoy a higher standard of living), but can't do anything about the much shorter southern border.

Doesn't that strike you as rather strange?

To be fair, there isn't that much demand for Candians to immigrate to America illegally. Different border, different situation, different terrain, different people, different government.

Poverty is the main reason that people immigrate from the south to America. I wouldn't say the north border is sealed up tight, only that there isn't many crossing over from the North. I would wager if Canada found themselves in the same poverty level as Mexico and southern countries you would have the same problem.
 
As far as I can tell, the US has nothing or very little to apologize for. According to non contradicted statements here in Germany the German chancellery signed a contract with the US allowing US agencies to do intelligence work in protection of the forces and US interests, when Steinmeier (now Secretary of State) was running it. This seems to include all recent activities. Furthermore, according to Snowden the German intelligence agency (BND) worked closely with NSA, felicitated access to data on German nationals in Germany and received forbidden fruit information back from the Americans to avoid themselves breaking their statutes. It seems the German government used such information routinely. If the Government allowed all this to go on and helped the Americans and used the intelligence, the Americans are not the ones to excuse themselves.
Thanks for the reply to my previous post. I have to disagree.
The premise for allowing US intelligence activities in Germany "then and now" was and should be very clear to anyone with the understanding of the reasons and objectives that existed then and now which by the way are quite different and also the sincerity to recognize the unnecessary overreach that has developed.
 
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?

Just move along. There is no need for reprisal or apology. Everyone is spying on everyone in the end, that's just SOP.
 
Thanks for the reply to my previous post. I have to disagree.
The premise for allowing US intelligence activities in Germany "then and now" was and should be very clear to anyone with the understanding of the reasons and objectives that existed then and now which by the way are quite different and also the sincerity to recognize the unnecessary overreach that has developed.

"Then and now"? When do you mean? As far as I have seen, the contract was signed by the Chancellery well after the end of the Cold War and was part of the conditions on which the US was willing to leave forces stationed in Germany. At the time the US had wanted to withdraw and the German governments wanted to prevent it. Here is an interview that may interest you. It concerns the NSA part of intelligence. The other agencies are also covered, however.
The NSA given a free hand to operate in Germany - World Socialist Web Site

Besides that it is totally normal for countries to spy on other countries. France is known to spy here. Italy, I am told, does. GB does. And Russia is certain to have a large contingent of spies here. As far as I know the other countries do not have permits, however. Everybody spies on each other. That is not only a fact of life. It is irresponsible not to. So why are they confronting the US? And why so loudly? Why are the whipping up emotions in the Volk? And they could have done this at any time, so why right now?

It would be criminal neglect, however, were the US not to spy on Germany as closely as possible. The country is much too close to Iran and Russia to name but two to leave them unwatched and continuously monitored. They have been unreliable allies in many instances and have done the US considerable damage any number of times. The reaction at this time demonstrates that they are unpredictable and could easily be dangerous.
 
Just move along. There is no need for reprisal or apology. Everyone is spying on everyone in the end, that's just SOP.

I think that the Snowden and Manning cases show us that if the roles were reversed, the US would react significantly more violently than Germany has done.
 
I think that the Snowden and Manning cases show us that if the roles were reversed, the US would react significantly more violently than Germany has done.

I don't think so. In this instance, we'd likely do the same thing and that's about it.
 
One reason for its good name and success of which you speak is exactly the irresponsibility of the country's international politics, that you obviously do not know in very much detail. But as you say, you have no dog in the race and maybe therefore no real reason to put in the necessary effort. Homilies about Beethoven and Mahler and the benefic influence of German on the English language is cute, but hardly a substitute for knowledge of recent history.

Pointing out the achievements of a remarkable nation, and the inexactitude of characterising it as a 'loose cannon', is hardly engaging in 'a religious discourse which is intended primarily for spiritual edification rather than doctrinal instruction', nor is it giving 'a tedious moralizing lecture' (definitions of a homily).

You claim that Germany enjoys a good name and success because of irresponsible foreign policy, and charge that I have little knowledge of these nefarious German activities. Well, the latter is certainly true, but for me to accept your indictment of the German nation, you will need to spell out the irresponsibility of that nation's international politics. I see no evidence of such activities, so I await your presentation of such evidence. :)
 
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To be fair, there isn't that much demand for Candians to immigrate to America illegally. Different border, different situation, different terrain, different people, different government.
Then why the secure border with Canada if Canada is no threat? I know of no Canadian who wants to emigrate to the US to seek a better life style unless its for career improvement, such as in the entertainment industry.
Poverty is the main reason that people immigrate from the south to America.
Of course. Problems should be changed therefore at the source and secure borders built in the southern borders, just as they have done on the much longer northern borders.
I wouldn't say the north border is sealed up tight, only that there isn't many crossing over from the North. I would wager if Canada found themselves in the same poverty level as Mexico and southern countries you would have the same problem.
And if the Americans had the same poverty level as Mexicans and Central Americans then they might be trying to sneak across the Northern border also. The latter is more likely given the future energy, debt and social problems in the USA, with no attempts to correct them.
 
Then why the secure border with Canada if Canada is no threat? I know of no Canadian who wants to emigrate to the US to seek a better life style unless its for career improvement, such as in the entertainment industry.

I didn't say there was NO threat. I said there wan't much demand for people in Canada to enter into the U.S. illegally. Please don't put words in my mouth, you should be able to argue your own merits without doing that.

Of course. Problems should be changed therefore at the source and secure borders built in the southern borders, just as they have done on the much longer northern borders.

Please show how the north is more secure than the south border. Just because you have less people coming form the north, doesn't mean it is more secure. There is just less demand.

And if the Americans had the same poverty level as Mexicans and Central Americans then they might be trying to sneak across the Northern border also. The latter is more likely given the future energy, debt and social problems in the USA, with no attempts to correct them.

Then that would be the problem of Canada to solve and increase their border. The north border is not "sealed" tight as you think it is.
 
LOL, I am not German, and do not as such have a dog in this hunt, but that is the most absurdly bizarre concept I have yet encountered on these pages. I should be most interested to learn of your reasons for regarding modern Germany as a 'loose cannon'.

AFIK, the Federal Republic of Germany is one of the most responsible and successful nations on earth. It is considerably more highly regarded across the world than is the United States, or even the United Kingdom.

To regard roughly 12 years (1933-1945) of the history of the German peoples - spanning over a thousand years - as defining the national character in perpetuity, is inaccurate to the extent of suggesting racial bias. It would be as logical to regard Abou Ghraib, or the My Lai massacre, as typifying the American character.

The German contributions to western civilisation - from philosophy, music, engineering, etc. so far eclipses those of Johnny-come-lately migrant societies as to not warrant further consideration. We have the motor car because of Germans, we have the printing press because of the Germans and English, and we have the like of Beethoven, Mozart, and Mahler because of the Germanic people. We also have the English language because of Germanic culture.

Many Europeans point to the distant past when pointing out their historic achievements in order to overshadow their more recent failures. Your reference to "Johnny-come-lately migrant societies" rather gives the game away.
 
I didn't say there was NO threat. I said there wan't much demand for people in Canada to enter into the U.S. illegally. Please don't put words in my mouth, you should be able to argue your own merits without doing that.
Then I'll say no threat. There is none. The US threat is from the southern border, which is far less guarded than the northern order.
Please show how the north is more secure than the south border. Just because you have less people coming form the north, doesn't mean it is more secure. There is just less demand.Then that would be the problem of Canada to solve and increase their border. The north border is not "sealed" tight as you think it is.
I'm in Canada now so am quite familiar with the borders though am not interested in doing the research on how much is spent between the north and south. Here is some amusing anecdotal evidence though. SIGNS OF THE TIMES: Happy Warrior :: SteynOnline
 
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You claim that Germany enjoys a good name and success because of irresponsible foreign policy, and charge that I have little knowledge of these nefarious German activities. Well, the latter is certainly true, but for me to accept your indictment of the German nation, you will need to spell out the irresponsibility of that nation's international politics. I see no evidence of such activities, so I await your presentation of such evidence. :)

I wrote a short entry here somewhere and gave a number of examples and explanations. I will try to find it.

For the moment a few examples that I am not going to explain in detail right now. They can, however, all be found in the public domain.

- Germany was supplying Qaddafi with a chemical weapons plant until the US went public with the intelligence it had gathered in the crisis known as "Auschwitz in the Sand.
- Germany supplied Syria with the component for its chemical weapons now being destroyed.
- Germany made the Iranian nuclear program possible by supplying technology and apertures.
- By supporting the separatists Genscher triggered the revolts in Yugoslavia with their the ethnic cleansing and other turmoil.
- Schröder supported Putin and Chirac in the run up to the Iraq2 war giving Saddam the backing he thought would allow him to ignore the Security Council resolution and Bush ultimatum to abide by it. This caused Saddam to miscalculate and increased the likelihood of military conflict.
- Germany committed to train the Afghan police. It delayed for domestic reasons in Germany till the project was in jeopardy and the Americans saw themselves forced to take over. This meant that a number of years were lost which allowed criminals to gain a large base. The related problems are still haunting the country.
 
Then I'll say no threat. There is none. The US threat is from the southern border, which is far less guarded than the northern order.

So you're not concerned in the least about terrorists possible entering illegally from the North? While you may put your faith in that, I surely wouldn't.

I'm in Canada now so am quite familiar with the borders though am not interested in doing the research on how much is spent between the north and south. Here is some amusing anecdotal evidence though. SIGNS OF THE TIMES: Happy Warrior :: SteynOnline

I can't open that link yet, but I will look at it later in the day, thank you.
 
I wrote a short entry here somewhere and gave a number of examples and explanations. I will try to find it.

For the moment a few examples that I am not going to explain in detail right now. They can, however, all be found in the public domain.

- Germany was supplying Qaddafi with a chemical weapons plant until the US went public with the intelligence it had gathered in the crisis known as "Auschwitz in the Sand.
- Germany supplied Syria with the component for its chemical weapons now being destroyed.
- Germany made the Iranian nuclear program possible by supplying technology and apertures.
- By supporting the separatists Genscher triggered the revolts in Yugoslavia with their the ethnic cleansing and other turmoil.
- Schröder supported Putin and Chirac in the run up to the Iraq2 war giving Saddam the backing he thought would allow him to ignore the Security Council resolution and Bush ultimatum to abide by it. This caused Saddam to miscalculate and increased the likelihood of military conflict.
- Germany committed to train the Afghan police. It delayed for domestic reasons in Germany till the project was in jeopardy and the Americans saw themselves forced to take over. This meant that a number of years were lost which allowed criminals to gain a large base. The related problems are still haunting the country.

Of course they never hesitated to turn on each other during the Cold War either, but they do have good engineers.
 
It's called espionage and everyone does it. Feigning shock is part of it, too. No big deal.
 
"Then and now"? When do you mean?
Post WW II cold war days and now. I am sure you agree that the scope of intelligence activities has changed considerably.

As far as I have seen, the contract was signed by the Chancellery well after the end of the Cold War
And the reason was the fight against the Soviets and their proxies in the then East Germany. That the West German government was infested with spies is a well known fact and thus the need to spy on members of the government. The current situation is hardly similar and clearly necessitates a different approach and scope. Do you really believe that the German Chancellor could be serving the interests of terrorists?

Besides that it is totally normal for countries to spy on other countries.
Indeed, but that is a far cry from them consenting to it. Remember the case of the Israeli spy and how we were up in arms over it. Israel is one of our trusted allies... so is it hypocrisy?
 
So you're not concerned in the least about terrorists possible entering illegally from the North? While you may put your faith in that, I surely wouldn't.
Entering North from Canada? I'm in Canada and have no fear of anyone entering the US illegally from here. If the US wants to focus their attention on the Northern border rather than the Southern then it's okay with me. I just see it as more money down the hole.

Islamic terrorists also try to murder Canadians, btw, so these problems are not near exclusive to the US. It's an international problem, and the United States is only exasperating it. Mexicans used to be able to enter Canada much like Americans could but no more. Canada has become more strict while the US has become porous and their living standards decline. But if you think this is moral and the world will look up to you for your benevolence, you are living in a fantasy world.
I can't open that link yet, but I will look at it later in the day, thank you.
You're quite welcome, and I think you'll enjoy it. It's funny in a rueful sort of way.
 
A little bit more of 'man's inhumanity to man' than I really need. A rather depressing culture, I found, and they seem to like it that way. Perhaps that explains the total absence of German comedians..

Huh? Absence of German comedians? There are tons of them, you just don't know them because they... (shocker)... tell jokes in German.
 
Huh? Absence of German comedians? There are tons of them, you just don't know them because they... (shocker)... tell jokes in German.

Yes, they're probably quite humorous. Maybe a German mime would be the breakthrough they need.
 
Many Europeans point to the distant past when pointing out their historic achievements in order to overshadow their more recent failures. Your reference to "Johnny-come-lately migrant societies" rather gives the game away.

LOL, I guess it does - but do you really consider that McDonalds, Coca Cola, and 'Atlas Shrugged' trump mechanised transport, the printing press, Beethoven, Mahler, Goethe, Schiller and Kant, as contributions to western civilisation?
 
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