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Thread: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

  1. #51
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Having said that, it would be irresponsible of the Americans not to spy on such a dangerous loos cannon as Germany has been.
    LOL, I am not German, and do not as such have a dog in this hunt, but that is the most absurdly bizarre concept I have yet encountered on these pages. I should be most interested to learn of your reasons for regarding modern Germany as a 'loose cannon'.

    AFIK, the Federal Republic of Germany is one of the most responsible and successful nations on earth. It is considerably more highly regarded across the world than is the United States, or even the United Kingdom.

    To regard roughly 12 years (1933-1945) of the history of the German peoples - spanning over a thousand years - as defining the national character in perpetuity, is inaccurate to the extent of suggesting racial bias. It would be as logical to regard Abou Ghraib, or the My Lai massacre, as typifying the American character.

    The German contributions to western civilisation - from philosophy, music, engineering, etc. so far eclipses those of Johnny-come-lately migrant societies as to not warrant further consideration. We have the motor car because of Germans, we have the printing press because of the Germans and English, and we have the like of Beethoven, Mozart, and Mahler because of the Germanic people. We also have the English language because of Germanic culture.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    LOL, I am not German, and do not as such have a dog in this hunt, but that is the most absurdly bizarre concept I have yet encountered on these pages. I should be most interested to learn of your reasons for regarding modern Germany as a 'loose cannon'.

    AFIK, the Federal Republic of Germany is one of the most responsible and successful nations on earth. It is considerably more highly regarded across the world than is the United States, or even the United Kingdom.

    To regard roughly 12 years (1933-1945) of the history of the German peoples - spanning over a thousand years - as defining the national character in perpetuity, is inaccurate to the extent of suggesting racial bias. It would be as logical to regard Abou Ghraib, or the My Lai massacre, as typifying the American character.

    The German contributions to western civilisation - from philosophy, music, engineering, etc. so far eclipses those of Johnny-come-lately migrant societies as to not warrant further consideration. We have the motor car because of Germans, we have the printing press because of the Germans and English, and we have the like of Beethoven, Mozart, and Mahler because of the Germanic people. We also have the English language because of Germanic culture.
    One reason for its good name and success of which you speak is exactly the irresponsibility of the country's international politics, that you obviously do not know in very much detail. But as you say, you have no dog in the race and maybe therefore no real reason to put in the necessary effort. Homilies about Beethoven and Mahler and the benefic influence of German on the English language is cute, but hardly a substitute for knowledge of recent history.

  3. #53
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    So, Germany is still putting on a show?
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I would have secured the border long ago and not advertised free food. The feds have got the northern border sealed tight, which is much longer (and where Canadians now enjoy a higher standard of living), but can't do anything about the much shorter southern border.

    Doesn't that strike you as rather strange?
    To be fair, there isn't that much demand for Candians to immigrate to America illegally. Different border, different situation, different terrain, different people, different government.

    Poverty is the main reason that people immigrate from the south to America. I wouldn't say the north border is sealed up tight, only that there isn't many crossing over from the North. I would wager if Canada found themselves in the same poverty level as Mexico and southern countries you would have the same problem.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    As far as I can tell, the US has nothing or very little to apologize for. According to non contradicted statements here in Germany the German chancellery signed a contract with the US allowing US agencies to do intelligence work in protection of the forces and US interests, when Steinmeier (now Secretary of State) was running it. This seems to include all recent activities. Furthermore, according to Snowden the German intelligence agency (BND) worked closely with NSA, felicitated access to data on German nationals in Germany and received forbidden fruit information back from the Americans to avoid themselves breaking their statutes. It seems the German government used such information routinely. If the Government allowed all this to go on and helped the Americans and used the intelligence, the Americans are not the ones to excuse themselves.
    Thanks for the reply to my previous post. I have to disagree.
    The premise for allowing US intelligence activities in Germany "then and now" was and should be very clear to anyone with the understanding of the reasons and objectives that existed then and now which by the way are quite different and also the sincerity to recognize the unnecessary overreach that has developed.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

    What should be Germany's next step?

    What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?
    Just move along. There is no need for reprisal or apology. Everyone is spying on everyone in the end, that's just SOP.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Thanks for the reply to my previous post. I have to disagree.
    The premise for allowing US intelligence activities in Germany "then and now" was and should be very clear to anyone with the understanding of the reasons and objectives that existed then and now which by the way are quite different and also the sincerity to recognize the unnecessary overreach that has developed.
    "Then and now"? When do you mean? As far as I have seen, the contract was signed by the Chancellery well after the end of the Cold War and was part of the conditions on which the US was willing to leave forces stationed in Germany. At the time the US had wanted to withdraw and the German governments wanted to prevent it. Here is an interview that may interest you. It concerns the NSA part of intelligence. The other agencies are also covered, however.
    The NSA given a free hand to operate in Germany - World Socialist Web Site

    Besides that it is totally normal for countries to spy on other countries. France is known to spy here. Italy, I am told, does. GB does. And Russia is certain to have a large contingent of spies here. As far as I know the other countries do not have permits, however. Everybody spies on each other. That is not only a fact of life. It is irresponsible not to. So why are they confronting the US? And why so loudly? Why are the whipping up emotions in the Volk? And they could have done this at any time, so why right now?

    It would be criminal neglect, however, were the US not to spy on Germany as closely as possible. The country is much too close to Iran and Russia to name but two to leave them unwatched and continuously monitored. They have been unreliable allies in many instances and have done the US considerable damage any number of times. The reaction at this time demonstrates that they are unpredictable and could easily be dangerous.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just move along. There is no need for reprisal or apology. Everyone is spying on everyone in the end, that's just SOP.
    I think that the Snowden and Manning cases show us that if the roles were reversed, the US would react significantly more violently than Germany has done.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think that the Snowden and Manning cases show us that if the roles were reversed, the US would react significantly more violently than Germany has done.
    I don't think so. In this instance, we'd likely do the same thing and that's about it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    One reason for its good name and success of which you speak is exactly the irresponsibility of the country's international politics, that you obviously do not know in very much detail. But as you say, you have no dog in the race and maybe therefore no real reason to put in the necessary effort. Homilies about Beethoven and Mahler and the benefic influence of German on the English language is cute, but hardly a substitute for knowledge of recent history.
    Pointing out the achievements of a remarkable nation, and the inexactitude of characterising it as a 'loose cannon', is hardly engaging in 'a religious discourse which is intended primarily for spiritual edification rather than doctrinal instruction', nor is it giving 'a tedious moralizing lecture' (definitions of a homily).

    You claim that Germany enjoys a good name and success because of irresponsible foreign policy, and charge that I have little knowledge of these nefarious German activities. Well, the latter is certainly true, but for me to accept your indictment of the German nation, you will need to spell out the irresponsibility of that nation's international politics. I see no evidence of such activities, so I await your presentation of such evidence.
    Last edited by Leo; 07-11-14 at 11:14 AM.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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