Page 2 of 21 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 203

Thread: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

  1. #11
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the edge...
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:15 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,208

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    German politicians should explain some facts of life. After all, the US did not sign the treaty allowing American agencies to spy in Germany alone. Both signatures are on the paper.
    Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

    They should also point out how odd it is for Germans to think of themselves as "friends" or even "reliable partners" after the things they have done. You can't trust someone whose behavior patterns have caused you so much harm and been so unpredictable.
    Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?

  2. #12
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,414

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I think at a minimum, an apology.
    It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
    and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.
    As far as I can tell, the US has nothing or very little to apologize for. According to non contradicted statements here in Germany the German chancellery signed a contract with the US allowing US agencies to do intelligence work in protection of the forces and US interests, when Steinmeier (now Secretary of State) was running it. This seems to include all recent activities. Furthermore, according to Snowden the German intelligence agency (BND) worked closely with NSA, felicitated access to data on German nationals in Germany and received forbidden fruit information back from the Americans to avoid themselves breaking their statutes. It seems the German government used such information routinely. If the Government allowed all this to go on and helped the Americans and used the intelligence, the Americans are not the ones to excuse themselves.

  3. #13
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    35,056

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I think at a minimum, an apology.
    It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
    and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.
    That's...interesting. So do you propose that every living ex-President come forward and publicly apologize to every friend and ally we've spied on?

  4. #14
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 11:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That's...interesting. So do you propose that every living ex-President come forward and publicly apologize to every friend and ally we've spied on?
    Actually Obama has done a pretty good job of apologizing for all of them.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  5. #15
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,414

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    (1) Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

    (2) Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?
    (1) The only thing I have quickly at hand is this interview in a quite solid German Newspaper. I have seen more, but would have to look for it and scan it.
    Historiker Foschepoth im Interview: "Die USA dürfen Merkel überwachen" | ZEIT ONLINE
    This interview was not to my knowledge contradicted and, though, it is treated back burner there have been a few mentions even on DLF, a public station in the last couple of days.

    (2) The incidence go way back and have become worse and more frequent.
    - During the Cold War the German government supported Eastern countries financially and made the export of large amounts of energy from Russia possible. The funds helped the Soviets prolong their reign, maintain their weapons development and deployment longer and raised the total costs of the Cold War for everyone else.
    - One such incident was the scandal that became known as Auschwitz in the Sand. At that time a German company was building a chemical weapons factory for Qaddafi. American intelligence found this out and asked Kohl (then Chancellor) to abide by the law and put an end to the project. The Americans kept asking for action for 2 years and finally went public. The reaction from Kohl was nasty, anti American and loud, demanding "gerichtsfähige Beweise" (proof that would stand up in court. After five days of shouting Germany went into a cooling period and the export and contracting was stopped.
    - Much against the expressed warnings of the White House Genscher weighed in on the side of the separatists in Yugoslavia and helped ignite the revolt that brought the ethnic cleansing that forced the US to intervene.
    - Germany was instrumental in inviting Turkey into the EU. When, after the Turks had expended enormous political capital on harmonizing to EU demands, Germany told the Turks (in spite of the warnings from Washington of the anger this would cause in Turkey) that they were no longer wanted as members, though, they did not stop the entry process. This has angered the population that feels slighted and to a degree pushed the country in the way of Islamism. This is a project yet developing.
    - German companies are widely admitted to have exported the technology to build chemical weapons to Syria. These exports had to be allowed by government.
    - Germany sold crucial instruments that made the Iranian nuclear program possible.
    - When Saddam was resisting the Security Council demand he show what had become of the WMD that the UN inspectors had seen before 1995 he was supported by Schröder (then Chancellor) combined with Putin and Chirac, who left him with the impression that the UN would not be able to use the force implied in resolution 1441 (number out of memory) as two of the triplet were veto members. He also was able to believe that there would not be a further resolution so that Bush would be unable to follow up his ultimatum in his speech before the General Assembly. This was all the more so as two major powers in NATO were loudly taking action to prevent force. It was widely held at the time that Chirac would have taken France out of the equation, when most of the EU members signed a letter in support of intervention, but could not risk loosing face, which Schröder's persistence would have meant. Schröder, of course, had to go on, as he had whipped the voters into a rage (which still persists and is part of the problem we see today) against Bush's policy in order to get the votes he needed in the general election. This left Saddam with the impression he could continue to play his game. Simple aplied game theory at work.
    - In Afghanistan Germany grabbed a then quiet area for stationing. At the time it was openly discussed that this was to avoid casualties, a point that later caused friction with die smaller countries like Holland. The major job the German contingent signed up for was to train the police force. They did nothing for years. The reasons given here in Germany were that it was too dangerous to send police officers from Germany, there was no legal method to recruit officers, the few officers to go were not allowed to accompany the trainees into dangerous areas.... Finely the US was forced to shoulder a good part of the program and the Germans helped. The program was way behind scheduled by that time and the numbers of police hardly reached the crucial level and much too late, allowing criminal activities to dig in and leaving a security deficit that continues to this day.

    There is more, but that must suffice.

  6. #16
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,414

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't believe any such treaty exists. You got a source?

    Germany has been and is an excellent friend and reliable partner, just not a lap-dog, like the UK. You can have disagreements with friends and partners while respecting their national integrity. Not a difficult concept.

    Can you back this up with any evidence of the Germans allowing this?
    Sorry. I saw your input late and answered prometeus below.

  7. #17
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:44 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,414

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So they Germans signed a treaty that allowed the US to implant a double agent into their inner circle? REALLY?
    No. That is not what I said, though, the way you respond is typical. But read the interview in Die Zeit. That should allow you to find more in the internet.

  8. #18
    Almost respectable

    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    35,056

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Actually Obama has done a pretty good job of apologizing for all of them.
    There we go. I knew we could get all our bases covered.

  9. #19
    Engineer

    RabidAlpaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    American in Europe
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    14,587

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't believe any such treaty exists. You got a source?

    Germany has been and is an excellent friend and reliable partner, just not a lap-dog, like the UK. You can have disagreements with friends and partners while respecting their national integrity. Not a difficult concept.

    Can you back this up with any evidence of the Germans allowing this?
    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

    Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?
    I gotta back joG up on this one. I may not know much about the subject but his source in post #15 seems to check out. I speak German but you can run it through the translator. Essentially there does exist a contract that was made after WWII in the early 50's as part of the cold war, as West Germany / East Germany was one of the main front-lines of the cold war.

    While it may still technically be allowed under an archaic contract, it shouldn't be.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    So they Germans signed a treaty that allowed the US to implant a double agent into their inner circle? REALLY?
    Same as above for you as well, but more specifically from the article in post #15 (paraphrased) "While the contract didn't give express permission to spy on top German politicians, there's not actually anything to forbid it and a whole lot that allows general spying"
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  10. #20
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,092

    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No. That is not what I said, though, the way you respond is typical. But read the interview in Die Zeit. That should allow you to find more in the internet.
    The issue is that they found a double agent in their spy agency/military and you bring in something about treaties and the Germans being hypocrites.. so I ask again, what does an intelligence sharing treaty have to do with the Americans planting a spy in the German government?
    PeteEU

Page 2 of 21 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •