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Thread: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

  1. #121
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So that's a yes?
    LOL, sorry if multisyllabic words confuse you, but had I wished to write 'yes' - three letters involve less effort than three paragraphs.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    We could indeed, and those are valid points, but they apply at varying periods of history and to varying societies. Many of the same claims could be made in respect of all Anglo-Saxon migrant societies, such as Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. The vast majority of people 'fleeing to the USA' have been, and still are, economic refugees - exactly the same may be said of Australia, Canada, and Western Europe.
    No, they were not all economic refugees, though that would have been sufficient reason as well, with America offering a better chance of freedom and success than anywhere in Europe. A lot of it was religious persecution, ethnic persecution and the class systems so commonplace in Europe.

    None of this has anything to do with what you, or I, may consider to be 'superior' societies, and sorry, but I am afraid I am not going to buy into your fantasies about Americans saving Europeans from themselves.
    You must be aware of the many wars Europeans have inflicted upon each other through the centuries but America had to become involved in WWI, WWII and the Cold War in order, indeed, to save Europeans from themselves. How can it be otherwise? As well, all the main inhumanities suffered by man against man, such as Nazism, Fascism and Communism during the last century, have all been European in origin.

    As an aside, their constant anti Americanism is one of their most tiresome features.

  3. #123
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    In the context you raised in your post I thought Times Square would be the place...
    No doubt, but I was approaching your question from an international perspective, and a socio-economic one.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    The current understanding of Western civilization and its origins by the average American...
    Fair point - but as above, I was extending it to encompass more than Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    I had no doubt, but have you accounted for the fact that she was raised in Russia and educated there, factors that leave undeniable traits on a person?
    Of course, and as I have indicated elsewhere, I consider her right wing extremism to be a reaction to the extreme socialist environment of the then Soviet Union. I was in no way suggesting that her views were typically American, but they are embraced today by more Americans than Europeans, which is why I made mention of Atlas Shrugged.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  4. #124
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, they were not all economic refugees, though that would have been sufficient reason as well, with America offering a better chance of freedom and success than anywhere in Europe. A lot of it was religious persecution, ethnic persecution and the class systems so commonplace in Europe.
    You are correct that not all were economic refugees, but certainly the vast majority were, and still are. The reasons for people fleeing various places change depending upon the era, as does their destination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You must be aware of the many wars Europeans have inflicted upon each other through the centuries but America had to become involved in WWI, WWII and the Cold War in order, indeed, to save Europeans from themselves. How can it be otherwise? As well, all the main inhumanities suffered by man against man, such as Nazism, Fascism and Communism during the last century, have all been European in origin.
    Yes, I have read history, and I am aware of the many wars in Europe's past, and I am also aware that the USA became involved in the two world wars. It is readily apparent that the USA became involved in WW2 because Hitler declared war upon it, and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. It did not enter that war, or World War 1 to 'save' anyone from themselves - it was the sinking of the Lusitania, and the Zimmerman telegram which were the triggers for US involvement (which came at the very last minute in the conflict). The Cold War was a battle for hegemony by two national ideologies, and was about control - nothing else. As I indicated before, do not expect an European to subscribe to US flag waving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    As an aside, their constant anti Americanism is one of their most tiresome features.
    LOL, I can understand your reaction, but has it occurred to you that the constant US anti-Europeanism (as evinced by this thread) might be equally tiresome to Europeans? We are none of us inherently superior to the other - we simply have different societal and value systems.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  5. #125
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    LOL, sorry if multisyllabic words confuse you, but had I wished to write 'yes' - three letters involve less effort than three paragraphs.
    What made you think I was confused? I asked you a yes or no question.

    Did my bluntness confuse you? I asked a very straightforward question.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  6. #126
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    What made you think I was confused? I asked you a yes or no question.

    Did my bluntness confuse you? I asked a very straightforward question.
    No, that is not so. You asked if three paragraphs which went to some trouble to point out that an unequivocal 'yes' or 'no' was not possible under the circumstances, comprised a 'yes'. From which two conclusions suggested themselves - (a) you were confused, or (b) you were deliberately baiting. I chose the more charitable conclusion of the two.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  7. #127
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    No, that is not so. You asked if three paragraphs which went to some trouble to point out that an unequivocal 'yes' or 'no' was not possible under the circumstances, comprised a 'yes'. From which two conclusions suggested themselves - (a) you were confused, or (b) you were deliberately baiting. I chose the more charitable conclusion of the two.
    I understand that this has confused and frightened you, and for that I apologize.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    You are correct that not all were economic refugees, but certainly the vast majority were, and still are. The reasons for people fleeing various places change depending upon the era, as does their destination.
    Yes, of course I was correct.
    Yes, I have read history, and I am aware of the many wars in Europe's past, and I am also aware that the USA became involved in the two world wars. It is readily apparent that the USA became involved in WW2 because Hitler declared war upon it, and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
    The US could have attacked Japan and ignored Hitler. But instead, despite "The War to End All Wars" the Europeans were at it again just a couple of decades later.
    It did not enter that war, or World War 1 to 'save' anyone from themselves - it was the sinking of the Lusitania, and the Zimmerman telegram which were the triggers for US involvement (which came at the very last minute in the conflict).
    Again, the Americans could have ignored all of this and not helped Britain at all. But they did.
    The Cold War was a battle for hegemony by two national ideologies, and was about control - nothing else. As I indicated before, do not expect an European to subscribe to US flag waving
    In fact Europe lost half of their continent and their anti-Americanism during this period never wavered, even as the Wall was coming down. These two "ideologies" as you call them, were as different as possible yet the Western Europeans couldn't seem to decide which they preferred. Communists at the time boasted how they could get 100,000 people marching in any major western European city with just a weeks notice.
    LOL, I can understand your reaction, but has it occurred to you that the constant US anti-Europeanism (as evinced by this thread) might be equally tiresome to Europeans? We are none of us inherently superior to the other - we simply have different societal and value systems.
    I'm not American but have worked there, and in Europe, and have never experienced any anti European attitude in the US until quite recently when they could see European vitriol on the internet. Prior to that they thought it quite quaint, though more than a little backward. They just don't care about Europe all that much which, oddly enough, is another European complaint. Of course anti-Americanism in Europe is rife and, as mentioned, so very tiresome. Make that very, very tiresome.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I understand that this has confused and frightened you, and for that I apologize.
    LOL, OK you win!
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I understand that this has confused and frightened you, and for that I apologize.
    It was a muddle. He was affecting the manner of a European intellectual.

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