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Thread: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

  1. #111
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.
    I find that..... extremely difficult to believe. It is like saying that Merkel would be astonished to learn that the United States has spy satellites. Far more likely she felt she had to take this step to save face.

    What should be Germany's next step?

    What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?
    Both countries should continue to work with each other and both IC's will continue to collect on each other in order to best inform their decision-makers. Because that is their job.

    If Germany wants to make too much noise about it, I would like an answer about why they lied to us about Curveball, given the rather disastrous consequences of that little deception.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Do you think that Europe is superior to the US, Leo?
    Europe and the USA are not easily comparable entities - the one is a vast collection of disparate and sovereign nations, employing many different languages, cultures, and social mores, while the other is an essentially homogenous socio-political entity with a common language, common values, and little meaningful social variety (although both the language and cultural issues are changing with the influx of Hispanic influence).

    A direct comparison wherein it is possibly to judge the one superior in all respects is not possible. As human societies both operate very differently, but each do some things well and others less so. I am an European, with European values, so I know in which society I would choose to live, but an US citizen could easily (and very likely would) hold the opposite view.

    Sorry for the seeming equivocation, but that's the only objective answer possible.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

  3. #113
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post

    If Germany wants to make too much noise about it, I would like an answer about why they lied to us about Curveball, given the rather disastrous consequences of that little deception.
    Whoa there, cowboy.
    As I understand it, both German and British intelligence had grave doubts about curveball's veracity.
    We ignored any concerns about the guy's credibility.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

  4. #114
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Europe and the USA are not easily comparable entities - the one is a vast collection of disparate and sovereign nations, employing many different languages, cultures, and social mores, while the other is an essentially homogenous socio-political entity with a common language, common values, and little meaningful social variety (although both the language and cultural issues are changing with the influx of Hispanic influence).

    A direct comparison wherein it is possibly to judge the one superior in all respects is not possible. As human societies both operate very differently, but each do some things well and others less so. I am an European, with European values, so I know in which society I would choose to live, but an US citizen could easily (and very likely would) hold the opposite view.

    Sorry for the seeming equivocation, but that's the only objective answer possible.
    So that's a yes?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  5. #115
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    Whoa there, cowboy.
    As I understand it, both German and British intelligence had grave doubts about curveball's veracity.
    We ignored any concerns about the guy's credibility.
    We wanted to vet the guy ourselves. Germany told us he was virulently anti-American, and so we couldn't talk to him. It was a lie. So we took the Germans at their word, and accepted their information.


    LATER German intel officials made sure to tell reporters that they "couldn't verify his reporting", which is basically a way of telling a lie with the truth - in the intelligence world, that only means that you don't have any other reporting string corroborating the claim, not that it is inherently untrustworthy, however, the latter is the common parlance.


    So, if Germany wants to get upset with us for doing the same thing to them that they do, then I think we ought to demand a public explanation for why they lied to us about Curveball

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Europe and the USA are not easily comparable entities - the one is a vast collection of disparate and sovereign nations, employing many different languages, cultures, and social mores, while the other is an essentially homogenous socio-political entity with a common language, common values, and little meaningful social variety (although both the language and cultural issues are changing with the influx of Hispanic influence).

    A direct comparison wherein it is possibly to judge the one superior in all respects is not possible. As human societies both operate very differently, but each do some things well and others less so. I am an European, with European values, so I know in which society I would choose to live, but an US citizen could easily (and very likely would) hold the opposite view.

    Sorry for the seeming equivocation, but that's the only objective answer possible.
    It's not that complicated. We can look at how many Europeans have fled to America for their lives and how many Americans have fled to Europe for similar reasons. Or how many times Americans have had to save Europeans from themselves. Those would be interesting statistics.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Alisa Rosenbaum would certainly not have been able to publish in Russia, and likely not Germany at the time either. This odd bit of trivia seems only a desire on your part to point out her Jewishness.
    LOL, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'! I made no mention of her Jewishness, as it had no relevance to the discussion at hand.

    This 'odd bit of trivia' was a response to the seeming claim by Prometeus that Rosenbaum, aka Ayn Rand, was a Russian not an American. She was in fact a Russian born American, and I suspect her extreme right wing ideology was a direct (and perhaps understandable) reaction to the extreme left wing ideology of her upbringing in the Communist Soviet Union. She left Russia at the age of 21, to become an American citizen, and there are few more devout adherents than recent converts.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    LOL, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'! I made no mention of her Jewishness, as it had no relevance to the discussion at hand.

    This 'odd bit of trivia' was a response to the seeming claim by Prometeus that Rosenbaum, aka Ayn Rand, was a Russian not an American. She was in fact a Russian born American, and I suspect her extreme right wing ideology was a direct (and perhaps understandable) reaction to the extreme left wing ideology of her upbringing in the Communist Soviet Union. She left Russia at the age of 21, to become an American citizen, and there are few more devout adherents than recent converts.
    Objectivism is a weird thing. She kept all the soullessness of the USSR, and simply changed all of the decorations. Like an x-ray, it can be accurate, without demonstrating the Truth of a thing.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It's not that complicated. We can look at how many Europeans have fled to America for their lives and how many Americans have fled to Europe for similar reasons. Or how many times Americans have had to save Europeans from themselves. Those would be interesting statistics.
    We could indeed, and those are valid points, but they apply at varying periods of history and to varying societies. Many of the same claims could be made in respect of all Anglo-Saxon migrant societies, such as Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. The vast majority of people 'fleeing to the USA' have been, and still are, economic refugees - exactly the same may be said of Australia, Canada, and Western Europe.

    None of this has anything to do with what you, or I, may consider to be 'superior' societies, and sorry, but I am afraid I am not going to buy into your fantasies about Americans saving Europeans from themselves.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    LOL, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'! I made no mention of her Jewishness, as it had no relevance to the discussion at hand.

    This 'odd bit of trivia' was a response to the seeming claim by Prometeus that Rosenbaum, aka Ayn Rand, was a Russian not an American. She was in fact a Russian born American, and I suspect her extreme right wing ideology was a direct (and perhaps understandable) reaction to the extreme left wing ideology of her upbringing in the Communist Soviet Union. She left Russia at the age of 21, to become an American citizen, and there are few more devout adherents than recent converts.
    You are correct. My apologies.

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