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Thread: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    I was not making an argument, merely relying to your question and commenting on your assertion of Germany agreeing for the US to conduct intelligence operations in their soil. It is you who believes that the agreement, which we do not have to read, is some form of "cart blanche" for the US intelligence organizations. My comment was for the purpose of dispelling that notion.
    I am saying that the agreement reported to have been signed, while Steinmeier was running the Chancellery long after the Cold War, was said to give cart blanch for intelligence gathering. This was publicly stated here in Germany and not disputed. If it is disputed, then the situation would change. Until then?

    And as to the data mining that is forbidden the German agencies? Well, they helped NSA do so and took the forbidden fruit intelligence from NSA. If there is a violation there, it was the German agencies and the politicians that are responsible for their oversight that should answer.

    As far as the spying goes, everyone and their dogs spy on Germany. That includes countries within the EU, Russia or China; you name it. Everyone knows this and has known it all along. Nothing has changed in that respect.
    So the question seems to me quite a different one: Why are the US being singled out by German politicians and bureaucrats and why at this time?

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    I feel like many of you don't understand what it is intelligence agencies are supposed to do.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    What he thinks is irrelevant to this question. May I suggest an experiment to settle it even if informally. Go out to a place frequented by a lot of people and ask at least 10 random people to take part in a survey and mention the same names and see the level of recognition. That should be a good indicator...

    PS Rand was Russian
    LOL, a lot would depend upon the place frequented by many people - I suspect the quadrangle at Oxford University might result in a near 100% recognition of Kant, Schiller, etc. A bronx ghetto - possibly less so. I am however, not quite sure what either result would tell us.

    I know that Alisa Rosenbaum was born in Russia, but she moved to the United States in 1926, became a US citizen, and published Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as American novelist Ayn Rand.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Do you think that Europe is superior to the US, Leo?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    LOL, a lot would depend upon the place frequented by many people
    In the context you raised in your post I thought Times Square would be the place...

    I suspect the quadrangle at Oxford University might result in a near 100% recognition of Kant, Schiller, etc. A bronx ghetto - possibly less so.
    Indeed.

    I am however, not quite sure what either result would tell us.
    The current understanding of Western civilization and its origins by the average American...

    I know that Alisa Rosenbaum was born in Russia, but she moved to the United States in 1926, became a US citizen, and published Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead as American novelist Ayn Rand.
    I had no doubt, but have you accounted for the fact that she was raised in Russia and educated there, factors that leave undeniable traits on a person?

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I am saying that the agreement reported to have been signed, while Steinmeier was running the Chancellery long after the Cold War, was said to give cart blanch for intelligence gathering.
    Yes, that is what I surmised from your post and that is where my disagreement lies for the reasons I posted. Even given our disagreement, I am sure you agree that the agreement was made to serve a purpose and I quite certain that the way I see it, it is closer that how you see it. Unfortunately there is not practical way to settle this so we just have to remain in disagreement.

    This was publicly stated here in Germany and not disputed. If it is disputed, then the situation would change. Until then?
    Probably because the agreement itself was not made public and because it was also a tool to circumvent German law, so I doubt that much publiciyty or debate is made about it.

    And as to the data mining that is forbidden the German agencies? Well, they helped NSA do so and took the forbidden fruit intelligence from NSA. If there is a violation there, it was the German agencies and the politicians that are responsible for their oversight that should answer.
    There is not disagreement on any other aspect, but solely that the agreement grants US intelligence operations the right to monitor the German Chancellor as opposed to being an overreach.

    As far as the spying goes, everyone and their dogs spy on Germany. That includes countries within the EU, Russia or China; you name it. Everyone knows this and has known it all along. Nothing has changed in that respect.
    No dispute there.
    So the question seems to me quite a different one: Why are the US being singled out by German politicians and bureaucrats and why at this time?
    For one the US got caught. Then there is this claim that the US is allowed to and third the clear message it sends which translates into arrogance in the least.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Yes, that is what I surmised from your post and that is where my disagreement lies for the reasons I posted. Even given our disagreement, I am sure you agree that the agreement was made to serve a purpose and I quite certain that the way I see it, it is closer that how you see it. Unfortunately there is not practical way to settle this so we just have to remain in disagreement.

    Probably because the agreement itself was not made public and because it was also a tool to circumvent German law, so I doubt that much publiciyty or debate is made about it.

    There is not disagreement on any other aspect, but solely that the agreement grants US intelligence operations the right to monitor the German Chancellor as opposed to being an overreach.

    No dispute there.
    For one the US got caught. Then there is this claim that the US is allowed to and third the clear message it sends which translates into arrogance in the least.
    Got caught? That is not quite what happened. An uninformed public thinks the US "got caught".

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    So, Germany is still putting on a show?
    America isn't the only country with "complex" internal politics.

    I imagine the fuss is being propagated so that German leadership can justify not cooperating with the United States more on Russia, at the behest of their country's energy industry lobbyists. Otherwise, they are in a pretty tight spot.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I never said they were funny, I simply corrected you that just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist in droves. My wife and her family love German comedians, god knows why.
    I spent six months working there and liked the rural people a lot but not so much in the cities. I live in Central America much of the time and many there say they tried to escape the strict German culture, others take it with them. I'd like them better if they'd lighten up a little.

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    Re: Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Enjoy!

    Criticizing stereotypes has become the stereotype.

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