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Thread: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    More BS Rob...

    1. Progressives would love nothing more than to see Walmart close its doors. Which would ensure that ALL their employees instantly become welfare recipients.
    Looks like you are the one spewing BS. I just love watching you think for progressives as if you had a clue. I'd just like to see them allow unions and quit shafting their employees. Not shudder their doors.
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    It's not factual to claim "Because that means that low-skill, low-education, low-experience workers become structurally unemployable, and are never able to improve their position, but are rather trapped in lifelong poverty or forced into illegal enterprise." That is called opinion based on nothing more than speculation. Raising the minimum wage to index for inflation does not mean that an individual will never be able to improve his/her position, and/or be trapped in a lifetime of poverty be or forced into illegal enterprise. That's an erroneous statement.
    Unfortunately it is not

    National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 19262: We find that the minimum wage reduces net job growth, with the most pronounced effects on younger and low-wage workers

    National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 12663: Studies that focus on low-wage workers provide relatively overwhelming evidence that minimum wage increases result in strong disemployment effects

    National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 18681: Utilizing proper control groups leads to stronger disemployment effects; the evidence shows that minimum wage increases still represent a trade-off between higher wages for some and unemployment for others

    National Bureau of Economics Working Paper 6127: The Evidence indicates that Minimum Wage Increases mostly redistribute resources among the low wage demographics, with slightly more people falling into poverty due to the lost income of disemployment than rising out of it due to income increases.

    Increasing minimum wage does, in fact, kick people out of the workforce. Just as it was intended to do.

    Also, he did not want to reduce wages.
    You are deliberately avoiding a discussion of real wages, which Inflation was indeed intended to reduce, in order to increase employment.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-15-14 at 12:30 AM.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Looks like you are the one spewing BS. I just love watching you think for progressives as if you had a clue. I'd just like to see them allow unions and quit shafting their employees. Not shudder their doors.
    Ah. So he was correct.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Okay, for argument sake let's agree that there may be a small effect of employment for low skilled workers:

    Low-wage Workers

    All monopsony models suggest that a modest increase in legal minimum wages should increase employment. In the United States, minimum wages affect only young and unskilled workers. Most studies of the effects of legal minimum wages in the 1970s and early 1980s found small decreases in employment for young unskilled workers, as predicted by the competitive model. However, later studies found almost no effect on employment (see Wellington, 1991) and a few studies found increases in employment as predicted by the monopsony model (see Card and Krueger, 1995). However, these latter studies are controversial (see exchange between Neumark and Wascher, 2000, and Card and Krueger, 2000) and have not convinced the majority of labor economists (see Whaples, 1996). In any case, the rate of exploitation, if positive, is probably small. Monopsony in American Labor Markets

    Which model would be best becomes the question:

    -A model where the most productive and skilled workers compete and get paid good wages which increases employment for them

    -A model where the least skilled worker is hired which pushes wages down in monopsony models and also may lead to exploit this type worker

    I say the first model is best, and for those who don't have skills or have low level skills, offer work training programs for them so they can have a positive future instead of one where they continue to be exploited by large corporations. This will benefit everyone.

    Also, I'm not avoiding anything. Your claim about Keynes is wrong.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is false. If (for example) the government were to cut food stamps tomorrow, there is no mechanism by which that would force minimum wage employers to increase their salary, nor any mechanism by which such a move would force the low-skill workforce to suddenly have greater value-added, justifying such an increase.



    Yeah. Bombing your industrial competition into ash and poverty and grime helps, too.
    Except that fewer people would be content to keep stocking shelves for minimum if they couldn't live on the wages paid. Instead of handouts, we need to be giving hand ups in the form of incentives to improve job skills, scholarships for low wage workers.

    and you can't bomb your competition into ash without also bombing your trading partners into ash. It's a trade off.
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Looks like you are the one spewing BS. I just love watching you think for progressives as if you had a clue. I'd just like to see them allow unions and quit shafting their employees. Not shudder their doors.
    Allowing Unionization of Walmart would ensure that the doors at some point close. The heart of Walmart's model right now is in providing goods at the 'lowest price'.... Can't do that in a Union Shop.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Allowing Unionization of Walmart would ensure that the doors at some point close. The heart of Walmart's model right now is in providing goods at the 'lowest price'.... Can't do that in a Union Shop.
    Depends on how much negotiating power that the union had, and what happened with the competition. You can't really say one way or another without enough information. I would think that if Walmart unionized, other retail workers would follow. If Walmarts primary competition all unionized, then seems to me that they wouldn't lose any competitive advantages.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't support state laws which give unions more power than they could obtain from just collective bargaining alone, but if the rich and famous can pay third party negotiators to get the best possible deal, shouldn't regular people be given the same option?

    I really don't understand why conservatives tend to be all for the wealthy getting richer by utilizing all of the resources that they can muster, but somehow middle class Americans shouldn't be allowed to do the same thing.
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    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    if the rich and famous can pay third party negotiators to get the best possible deal, shouldn't regular people be given the same option?
    Gosh, that sounds like some of that radical "all men are created equal" rhetoric. Where have I heard that one before?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Allowing Unionization of Walmart would ensure that the doors at some point close. The heart of Walmart's model right now is in providing goods at the 'lowest price'.... Can't do that in a Union Shop.
    Bullcrap speculation at its very best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Okay, for argument sake let's agree that there may be a small effect of employment for low skilled workers:
    Given that a negative effect on employment for low-skilled workers is the overwhelming conclusion of the evidence available and the basic application of the laws of supply and demand.

    Low-wage Workers

    All monopsony models suggest that a modest increase in legal minimum wages should increase employment. In the United States, minimum wages affect only young and unskilled workers. Most studies of the effects of legal minimum wages in the 1970s and early 1980s found small decreases in employment for young unskilled workers, as predicted by the competitive model. However, later studies found almost no effect on employment (see Wellington, 1991) and a few studies found increases in employment as predicted by the monopsony model (see Card and Krueger, 1995). However, these latter studies are controversial (see exchange between Neumark and Wascher, 2000, and Card and Krueger, 2000) and have not convinced the majority of labor economists (see Whaples, 1996). In any case, the rate of exploitation, if positive, is probably small. Monopsony in American Labor Markets

    Which model would be best becomes the question:

    -A model where the most productive and skilled workers compete and get paid good wages which increases employment for them

    -A model where the least skilled worker is hired which pushes wages down in monopsony models and also may lead to exploit this type worker
    C: A model that allows low-skilled workers to become higher-skilled workers through experience.

    What you miss is that the two models you propose are not mutually exclusive. Our society will pay little for low-value added labor, and highly for high-value-added labor.

    I say the first model is best, and for those who don't have skills or have low level skills, offer work training programs for them so they can have a positive future instead of one where they continue to be exploited by large corporations. This will benefit everyone.
    Sure. We have one of those. It is called "The Public Education System".

    Also, I'm not avoiding anything. Your claim about Keynes is wrong.
    it simply is not, and that is part of why Keynes' theory had such problems in the 70s.

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