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Thread: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually the original purpose of the minimum wage was to price black and asian workers out of the market, and prop up "decent white workers" who were trying to raise "decent white families." The theory was that by raising the price floor, you could artificially decrease the demand for low-value labor; and they were (unfortunately) correct.



    Actually Keynes did not, since his solution to sticky wages was inflation, which decreases real wages. The process that you are complaining about WRT minimum wage? Keynes would have considered that a win.
    Racist stuff aside, why wouldn't we want to decrease demand for low value labor? Also, Keynes solution to unemployment was not to reduce wages and prices but to raise consumption through the spending of money through the government.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Gracias por Graciousness.



    well then there they are . looks like we can safely stop worrying about them.
    Except those government handouts amount to a subsidy for employers who pay low wages, which in turn encourages people to work for low wages and employers to pay those wages.

    Instead of employers paying taxes that go to subsidize their low wage workforce, wouldn't it be better to pay better wages and forego the taxes and handouts in the first place?

    Back when I was an unskilled worker, which was in the '50s and early '60s, wages in comparison to the cost of things was much higher than it is now, but there weren't all the government handouts that we have today. It seems to me that the economy was a lot stronger as a result.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Except those government handouts amount to a subsidy for employers who pay low wages, which in turn encourages people to work for low wages and employers to pay those wages.

    Instead of employers paying taxes that go to subsidize their low wage workforce, wouldn't it be better to pay better wages and forego the taxes and handouts in the first place?
    Consumer preferences are still king. If they want the lowest price equivalent, they will get it, and it won't matter if you're subsidizing consumption via government expenditure or mandating wage raises with legislation because technology will give companies the lowest price production equivalent so that consumers can get the lowest price equivalent with their dollars. Stated differently, technological advancements will promote greater disemployment effects when wages and benefits are mandated to rise.

    Back when I was an unskilled worker, which was in the '50s and early '60s, wages in comparison to the cost of things was much higher than it is now, but there weren't all the government handouts that we have today. It seems to me that the economy was a lot stronger as a result.
    A lot of correlation versus causation issues with saying that the economy during that period of time was strong DUE TO (x) or (y). A couple of the biggest economic drivers during that period were anomalous. No way to recreate those conditions.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-13-14 at 05:10 PM.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    I feel bad for young people making that wage. When I was young, I took a minimum wage job to pay for my post secondary education. While it didn't pay the full cost, it covered a substantial amount and I paid per semester. Kids now a days probably can't afford books and other fees on minimum wage never mind tuition. The cost of everything has skyrocketed. Since we are talking statistics, 5% of individuals make over $100K while 20% of household income (more than one person) make that amount.
    It would take $279,900 to have the same purchasing power in 2012 compared to $100,000 in 1980. Gulp.

    Info from:
    Read more: $100,000 Income: No Big Deal Anymore | Bankrate.com
    Follow us: @Bankrate on Twitter | Bankrate on Facebook
    No doubt. Guess who really gets squeezed today? The middle
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Consumer preferences are still king. If they want the lowest price equivalent, they will get it, and it won't matter if you're subsidizing consumption via government expenditure or mandating wage raises with legislation because technology will give companies the lowest price production equivalent so that consumers can get the lowest price equivalent with their dollars. Stated differently, technological advancements will promote greater disemployment effects when wages and benefits are mandated to rise.



    A lot of correlation versus causation issues with saying that the economy during that period of time was strong DUE TO (x) or (y). A couple of the biggest economic drivers during that period were anomalous. No way to recreate those conditions.
    Yes, consumer preferences are still king, but it seems hardly fair for the government to subsidize one industry and create artificially low prices via tax subsidies.

    I'm sure there are many reasons why the wage earner is making so much less today than in the past. Union membership is one thing that comes to mind. Outsourcing is another. The bottom line, though, is that people at the bottom rungs of the economic ladder, and increasingly those in the middle as well, are earning less and less.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The economy has shrunk and there are millions of people on the outside looking in......... Of course Obama wants to import millions more of illegal aliens so he can get them government dependent so they can vote democrat...

    Also, all this insourcing is pissing me off...... Both corporations and the federal government are creating a situation where there are no jobs for US citizens. However, the pressure certainly comes from the government with their affirmative action bull****.....
    Why did Bush II let in 4 million illegals between 2000-2008, and there were about 8 million that were here by 2000. So that's 12 million illegals here by 2008, and as of 2012, there were about.....12 million illegals. So a net change of roughly zero during the first 4 Obama years.

    If you want to say Obama isn't doing enough at the border, that's fine, but at least recognize that this problem didn't start with him, and in fact the vast majority of the illegals taking all those American jobs were here before he took over the reigns at the border.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Yes, consumer preferences are still king, but it seems hardly fair for the government to subsidize one industry and create artificially low prices via tax subsidies.

    I'm sure there are many reasons why the wage earner is making so much less today than in the past. Union membership is one thing that comes to mind. Outsourcing is another. The bottom line, though, is that people at the bottom rungs of the economic ladder, and increasingly those in the middle as well, are earning less and less.
    Here's what I don't get. The right wing now accepts that illegals undermine U.S. wages, see my post nearby. And they want to shut the border down, kick out 12 million illegals, so the workforce drops, the supply curve moves, demand for labor stays constant, we get higher wages. All good.

    So why is there such support for 'free trade' and the Walmart business model that demands outsourced production to get their low, low prices? I guess we need to draw a picture where instead of U.S. workers competing with 12 million illegals, they're now competing with a billion 'illegals ' from China, a billion 'illegals' from India, etc.

    In other words, it makes no sense to me to support 'free trade' and offshoring production jobs, but somehow oppose effectively offshoring jobs held by illegals doing U.S. work that can't be actually moved to China or India or Vietnam. The actual free market types support offshoring AND open borders for labor, same way they support open borders for capital. I'll admit, I'm a protectionist and have no more problem limiting the free movement of capital as I do with enforcing our borders. If GE wants to make light bulbs in China, fine, just pay a tariff to get them back in here. But if I support GE being able to import light bulbs made with foreign labor at 40 cents per hour, why would I have a problem with a chicken slaughterhouse importing illegals and working them HERE at $5 an hour? It's the same thing accomplished different ways.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    ... and it won't matter if you're subsidizing consumption via government expenditure or mandating wage raises ...
    You are the last person I thought I would see defending subsidies (for anything).
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
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    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    You are the last person I thought I would see defending subsidies (for anything).
    It's not that I defend them per se, it's that what's potentially worse is a welfare state in which the government does not actually take any responsibility over it, rather sits back and places mandates on citizens to help one another out in a particular fashion.

    Let's also keep clear that the array of individual welfare programs out there may have an indirect subsidizing effect on some employers, but it is not accurate to actually call them subsidies. Equating one thing to another in that regard makes it impossible to differentiate between individual welfare and corporate welfare.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    It's not that I defend them per se, it's that what's potentially worse is a welfare state in which the government does not actually take any responsibility over it, rather sits back and places mandates on citizens to help one another out in a particular fashion.

    Let's also keep clear that the array of individual welfare programs out there may have an indirect subsidizing effect on some employers, but it is not accurate to actually call them subsidies. Equating one thing to another in that regard makes it impossible to differentiate between individual welfare and corporate welfare.
    I suppose that's true, but if a minimum wage employer doesn't offer health benefits, for example, then taxpayers pick up those costs. We know this happens, because we can see who is on Medicaid, and MANY of them have jobs with various low wage employers. Walmart is by far the biggest employer of those on Medicaid, but in my state the biggest as a group are apparently now 'staffing' companies that fill all kinds of low wage positions - warehousing, cleaning, etc.

    So we could as society remove the safety nets and these people and their kids, when they got sick, would just get denied care and many would die. In short order, there would likely be protests, walkouts, etc. and employers in a 'free market' perhaps unable to fill those positions without some base level of benefits. Or they'd fund company clinics or find some other way to keep their workers from revolting. But it seems clear that those healthcare costs would be shifted back to employers somehow, at least in part. Mothers aren't going to work a job that if they do what's asked, still won't allow them to afford healthcare for a sick child or themselves if they get sick, not in the U.S.

    That's how I look at Medicaid as a subsidy - it allows for low wage labor while keeping the peace in workplaces in many industries, and taxpayers pick up that cost. Not sure how else to accurately describe what the net effect of safety nets are to employers of low wage labor. We make that low wage job possible, in part at least, by assuring some basic level of subsistence no matter how low the wage or whether or not benefits come with that job.

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