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Thread: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

  1. #91
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I apologize if I mis characterized your post or sentiment. In the heat of the moment, I may have misconstrued what you were trying to get across.

    You said: "I personally don't desire an America that pays third world wages."

    I don't desire that either. It is your use of the term "third world wages" that threw me....According to the Independent Institute

    Attachment 67169563

    Now, I don't know if you're trying to throw me intentionally or just use rhetoric but in any case I don't think that by having a Walmart around is endangering us to that reality.
    No, me either. Walmart isn't to blame.

    My hope is that eventually world wide wages will rise closer to that of the US, at which time it will no longer be cost effective to import goods from around the world, and more manufacturing will come back to the US, ending our trade deficit.

    My expectation is that as that happens, we still won't have more jobs, because automation is going to gradually reduce the need for human labor.

    So to an extent, we either outsource to foreign countries, or we outsource to automation, the net result on jobs in the US is the same. Of course eliminating our trade deficit would be a plus, and those low wage countries are going to have to start developing their internal markets if they desire to continue to improve their standard of living and to provide ample jobs and decent wages for their people (of course decent wages results in an stronger internal market, so it's really a big spiral, we either spiral downward or upward).
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  2. #92
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Hmmm...That's cool...I threw a party last weekend that I openly invited any in the area to attend but didn't get much response...Ah well, I thought it would be cool to meet some of the other posters in the area...But, to no avail....The invitation still stands as long as I am home, if you're interested you should PM me.
    I was out of state on vacation, but I would like to do that some day.

    I am having a pool party at my house tomorrow for a friend who is celebrating her big 50 birthday, if you would like, please message me and I would love to have you and any other posters on this site as our guest.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  3. #93
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    Failure to present an entire truth is....LYING. "Legally skew numbers so they make their bosses happy" Lying is lying.

    Do you understand that the written law was never intended to define standards of morality? The written law only sets out a level below which your behavior may not fall or you will be punished. BIG difference, but very important for moral and honorable people to understand.

    It's important to try not to get too cute. People lose respect for you.
    Bottom line is there is just no evidence the gearheads at BLS are lying. They take the data and use the definitions dictated to them, and can be easily found online, to produce monthly reports. Those definitions haven't changed for a couple of decades. There ARE issues with them, but they haven't changed during the 21st century.

    So when you say the 'government' is lying, what are you referring to? Do you think the gearheads fudge the numbers or is the problem with using, say, U-3 as the 'official' unemployment rate. Maybe we should count prisoners as part of the workforce like we used to? Or maybe it's 'hedonic' adjustments for CPI you don't like? Etc. Just a blanket allegation the the government is 'lying' doesn't get anyone anywhere, except it allows for people to disregard any data they don't like.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Bottom line is there is just no evidence the gearheads at BLS are lying. They take the data and use the definitions dictated to them, and can be easily found online, to produce monthly reports. Those definitions haven't changed for a couple of decades. There ARE issues with them, but they haven't changed during the 21st century.

    So when you say the 'government' is lying, what are you referring to? Do you think the gearheads fudge the numbers or is the problem with using, say, U-3 as the 'official' unemployment rate. Maybe we should count prisoners as part of the workforce like we used to? Or maybe it's 'hedonic' adjustments for CPI you don't like? Etc. Just a blanket allegation the the government is 'lying' doesn't get anyone anywhere, except it allows for people to disregard any data they don't like.
    Honestly, I believe the reason that many people don't believe the government numbers is because those numbers don't match their ideology.

    It's amazing how when we have a bad economic report on a particular metric, the same people who were previously shouting "the government is cooking the books", suddenly say "see there, our economy is getting worse and the government numbers prove it".

    The government metrics more or less match my personal observations, and in the absence of any overwhelming evidence that the "books are cooked", l have no reason to believe that they aren't reasonable accurate, at least over time, and in the appropriate trend directions. Of course I have no particular ideology to prove, I pretty much accept that it is what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by iacardsfan View Post
    Says the Constitution. Where in the Constitution does Congress or the President get the power to recover the economy? They don't. We are a nation that is supposed to be governed by this sacred document, and yet we trample on it over and over again.
    Economic policy to advance U.S. interests, improve our economy, is clearly a legitimate role of government. Alexander Hamilton developed the first 'economic' plan for the U.S. in the 1700s. So if it is legitimate for the U.S. government to promote 'manufacture' - and he believed it was, and I think he can be trusted to speak for at least many of the Founders - then why would it be inappropriate, Constitutionally, for the Feds to change policy to promote 'recovery' of the economy? It's clearly not. You might disagree with the notion, but it's certainly in line with the thinking of the Founders.

    Some quotes from Hamilton's plan, talking about manufacturing:

    “To produce the desirable changes, as early as may be expedient, may therefore require the incitement and patronage of government.”

    “To be enabled to contend with success, it is evident, that the interference and aid of their own government are indispensable.”

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    Honestly, I believe the reason that many people don't believe the government numbers is because those numbers don't match their ideology.
    Exactly, and they're too intellectually lazy/incompetent to make their case using data, and so just resort to dismissing evidence that is inconvenient. The pathetic thing is the 'official' numbers are plenty bad enough to tell the story they want to tell. We ARE seeing people get discouraged and leaving the workforce, wages are NOT moving upward fast enough or at all in some cases, we DO have too many part timers wanting full time, we DO have too many new jobs in crap industries and not enough in well paying fields, etc. But then they'd have to make an actual case citing the evidence, and it's sooo much easier to say "the government is lying!!" and leave it at that.

    It's amazing how when we have a bad economic report on a particular metric, the same people who were previously shouting "the government is cooking the books", suddenly say "see there, our economy is getting worse and the government numbers prove it".
    Yes, I've noticed that too. Weird how confirmation bias works...

    The government metrics more or less match my personal observations, and in the absence of any overwhelming evidence that the "books are cooked", l have no reason to believe that they aren't reasonable accurate, at least over time, and in the appropriate trend directions. Of course I have no particular ideology to prove, I pretty much accept that it is what it is.
    If you asked a BLS gearhead the purpose of the employment situation report, he'd give an answer very similar to that right there.

    Heck, there is the preliminary estimate with a 90% CI of + or - 100,000, that is revised the next two months, then the whole series for that year is further revised when the BLS receives data from the annual payroll tax filings

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    BTW, all the 'free market' and Constitutional originalists should read Hamiliton's plan at the link above. What I quoted was from the introduction. These are the first three of an 11 point plan:

    1. Protecting duties -- or duties on those foreign articles which are the rivals of the domestic ones intended to be encouraged.
    Duties of this nature evidently amount to a virtual bounty on the domestic fabrics; since, by enhancing the charges on foreign articles, they enable the, national manufacturers to undersell ;all their foreign competitors. It has the additional recommendation of being a resource of revenue. Indeed, all tile duties imposed on imported articles, though with an exclusive view to revenue, have the effect, in contemplation, and, except where they fill on raw materials, wear a beneficent aspect towards the manufacturers of the country.

    2. Prohibitions of rival articles, or duties equivalent to prohibitions.
    This is another and an efficacious mean of encouraging national manufactures; Of duties equivalent to prohibitions, there are examples in the laws of the United States, but they are not numerous. It might almost be said, by the principles of distributive justice; certainly, by the duty of endeavoring to secure to their own citizens a reciprocity of advantages.

    3. Prohibitions of the exportation of the Materials of Manufactures.
    .....
    Etc.
    Read them all.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    ...The pathetic thing is the 'official' numbers are plenty bad enough to tell the story they want to tell. We ARE seeing people get discouraged and leaving the workforce, wages are NOT moving upward fast enough or at all in some cases, we DO have too many part timers wanting full time, we DO have too many new jobs in crap industries and not enough in well paying fields, etc....
    When my facebook friends post bull**** (lies or biased) articles bashing our government or Obama, that's exactly what I point to. There are ample LEGITIMATE failures of this economy and the Obama administration, no point in making up crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    When my facebook friends post bull**** (lies or biased) articles bashing our government or Obama, that's exactly what I point to. There are ample LEGITIMATE failures of this economy and the Obama administration, no point in making up crap.
    Oh, but making up crap is so much fun.

    Did you know that Obama is a Muslim terrorist out to destroy America? It's true. Must be. I read it on the internet.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  10. #100
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    Re: WAL-MART CEO: Things Aren't Getting Better For America's Middle Class

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Individually people can move from a Walmart job to a better job - no doubt that's true. But that Walmart job is and will always be a low value added and therefore low wage job, so if someone manages to move up and out of Walmart, someone else will be in that crap job. Micro versus macro.

    Further, they're a leader in the low cost strategy and are relentless in demanding their suppliers cut the price of their goods, which the suppliers can ONLY do by offshoring the production. So the choice for a supplier is offshore, or not get stocked by the largest U.S. retailer, so they rationally shut down the U.S. plant and move offshore, where production is subsidized by the host countries, good for employment growth in the offshore locations, but not so good for U.S. workers making stuff.

    Finally, a memo came out a few years ago where they really do NOT like long term employees for most positions (obviously different for managers etc.) They have consciously decided on a strategy of high turnover, low wage labor.
    Wal Mart customers want the lowest price on goods. So all Wal Mart is doing is staying competitive by giving their customers want they want. There is a Market for people wanting higher price made in America products and their stores that fill that need.

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