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Thread: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

  1. #191
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha C View Post
    ...

    It doesn't help when Republicans intentionally cut revenue flows to the Federal govt.

    But hey, they're your party so it's obvious you're going to ignore That.

    Republicans cut revenue flow? It doesn't help when we have so many poorly informed people. Govt. revenue set records after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts so where is the revenue cut?

  2. #192
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Part 1 of my reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Look, you don't want to keep more of your money then send it to the govt. but we have a consumer generated economy that is driven by people keeping, spending, saving, or investing their own cash. You don't seem to understand the concept,
    Really? So it was private investment - and not the biggest government stimulus in history (also known as WWII) - that got us out of the Depression? And our economy was actually tanking during the 1950's when our top marginal tax rate was 90%, and during the 1960's when our top marginal tax rate was 70%?

    Private investment is crucial, guy - there's no argument there - BUT today's conservatives seem to have forgotten the equally crucial role that the government plays in building the nation's economy. When I was a young man in college, when Carter was president, a very common saying among the conservatives of the day (and I was very much a conservative then) was "We just need a good war". Why did we conservatives say that? Because we all understood the stimulative effect that government spending (especially on infrastructure) had on the nation's economy. We didn't really want another war - Vietnam was still an open wound and none of us wanted to take a chance on the Cold War turning hot - but we knew that when the government invested in infrastructure, all Americans benefited.

    nor the reality that Clinton didn't inherit a recession like Bush and Reagan did
    REALLY? Let me guess - you're what, no more than, say, 35 years old? Because if you were much older, you'd probably remember that during the 1992 election we were still trying to recover from a recession that had started in 1990. It had officially ended in 1991...but just as we're still recovering from the Great Recession even though it officially ended in August 2009 (yes, that's when it officially ended), in 1992 we were still recovering from the 1990 recession...which is why "It's the economy, stupid" cost Bush 41 the election. And I've said MANY times that I give Bush 41 more credit than Clinton for the mid-90's economic boom.

    Not only that, but while Reagan did inherit an economic mess (which, while it was NOWHERE nearly as bad as the Great Recession y'all handed Obama, was not something that could be blamed on either party - see "lasting effects of Arab Oil Embargo"), neither Reagan NOR Bush 43 inherited a huge economic deficit. In fact, the SURPLUS that Bush inherited was big enough that it was calculated that it would pay of our nation's ENTIRE debt by 2012!

    So...what happened to that mighty surplus that Bush 43 inherited, that was going to pay off our entire national debt by 2012? Hm?

    and Obama still has fewer people working today than when the recession started with a larger labor force.
    Because we are STILL recovering from the Great Recession, guy...in addition to the little fact that Obama's having to deal with the MOST obstructionist Congress since the Civil War, one in which the Republicans have forgotten how it was a truly massive government economic stimulus (also called WWII) that pulled us out of the Depression.

    Facts simply get in the way of your opinions and feelings.
    You need to go re-check your 'facts'...because you really show a lack of understanding of even recent economic history. I used to be like you - I used to be a strong conservative. I understand why you think as you do...but you've apparently zero clue as to why we liberals think as we do.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  3. #193
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Part 2 of my reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I don't understand the jealousy and ignorance of liberals who have no problem with a 3.9 trillion dollar govt, 17.5 trillion in debt, and massive dependence on the govt, Apparently that is what you want and if so go some place else.
    Jealousy? Let me get this straight - the Democratic party is strongest in almost EVERY ethnic and demographic group except for older white males...but the REASON all the other ethnic and demographic groups are majority-Dem is because they're 'jealous'? Do you not see the silliness of the concept? Here's another example: What's the single most economically-successful ethnic group? Asians, right? Right. And if they're the most successful, would they be 'jealous' of the success of whites? NOT likely. And what party does the socially-conservative Asian community support to an ever-increasing degree? The Democratic party. Think about that one for a while.

    And "ignorance"? Lemme see here - which side is it that increasingly insists on creationism being taught in schools, that almost to a man believes that 98% of the world's climatologists (and over 90% of the rest of the world's scientists) are lying about climate change, that wants to slash school funding, that thinks that teachers are getting paid too much? Oh, right - the CONSERVATIVES. And what states generally have the LOWEST educational attainment? RED states.

    Yet y'all try to call us 'ignorant'.

    And as far as the numbers go...remember, Bush 43 was handed a SURPLUS that would have paid off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012. What did he do as soon as he could? Slashed taxes and sent us on an illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq, among other things. How was our economy when Bush 43 took office, as compared to when Bush 43 left office? In other words, guy, y'all have NO room to speak.

    Oh, by the way, when the recession began there were 146.3 million working Americans and that is 146.2 million today almost 7 years later. Obama took office with 142.2 million working Americans and that is 146.2 million today so the increase in 6 years is 4 million which I believe is less than the 9 million Bush had in 7 years. Not sure where you get your information but I can guess.
    Y'know what? I did make a mistake - I did overstate how many jobs have been created under Obama, and that's no one's fault but my own - thank you for pointing that out. NOW, look to yourself - because you seem to have conveniently forgotten that when Obama first took the oath of office, we were LOSING over half million jobs PER MONTH. Our economy was in free fall, in the worst economic trouble we'd been in for EIGHTY FREAKING YEARS.

    Not only did YOUR boys take a surplus that SHOULD have paid off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012 and turn it into the largest deficit in American history (yes, the Bush 2009 budget did include what is STILL the largest deficit in our history)...but YOUR boys also decided to oppose every freaking thing that Obama tried to do to fix the economy...which has resulted in the most obstructionist Congress since the Civil War. It's doggone hard to fix the economy when half the government - the Republican half - does everything they can to gum up the people who ARE trying to fix the economy.

    Here's a WONDERFUL example: Obama tried to take away the tax break that corporations were getting for outsourcing our jobs overseas...and the Republicans filibustered it, refused to let us take that tax break away from the corporations! This was in something like 2010...and our recovery was then still very weak...and Obama was trying to keep corporations from shipping American jobs overseas...and what did the Republicans do? They FILIBUSTERED it! It's been the same old story the whole time: whatever Obama does, it must be wrong or evil or corrupt or scandalous or stupid or bad. Thou Shalt Not give him credit for doing ANYTHING right!

    And you know what? I saw this coming back in the early 1990's...when I first really began rethinking why it was I was a conservative. I saw then how my fellow conservatives were hating liberals not for what the liberals were doing or supporting...but because they were liberals. I saw it when the Republicans laughed with glee when Oliver North got away with Iran-Contra, with what would today have rightly been called treason. I saw it when Strom Thurmond warned Clinton not to come to his state because he couldn't promise that the president wouldn't be shot (which btw was recently repeated against Hillary). And these are but two of the many, many examples of how the Right was going down the wrong path. And I could not allow myself to remain part of a group that hates just for the sake of hate.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  4. #194
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Republicans cut revenue flow? It doesn't help when we have so many poorly informed people. Govt. revenue set records after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts so where is the revenue cut?
    No, what happened is you're confusing the numbers with the rate of growth. While the raw numbers were higher, the rate of growth of the tax revenue was slashed...which meant it could not keep up with what the government was spending...

    ...which is why, although Bush 43 inherited a surplus that was estimated to pay off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012, by the end of his eight years, he'd turned it into what is today still the biggest deficit in American history - the 2009 budget (which was written by Bush).

    AGAIN, if high taxes are SO bad, why is it that our economy boomed in the 1950's with a 90% top marginal tax rate? And if government spending is SO bad, why is it that WWII pulled us out of the Depression instead of sinking us even further into the Depression, since WWII was pretty much COMPLETELY government-funded?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #195
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha C View Post
    Well, generally home sale volume, according to Green iirc, indicates recessions. Except the Korean War, where (Lucas Green, was that his name?) gov't stimulus stopped a recession from occuring.

    But remember, gov't Stimulus is the worst form of expense. Because... REPUBLICANZZZZZZ. But seriously.

    Government stimulus is good, as per private sector read up on the "Empty State Building", aka, the Empire State Building. Material and Labour costs shrunk so greatly even though the investment was supposedly bad, it was so low they could afford to wait out the bad times until the Condition of the National Economy increased and rents increased expontentially compared to the cost of investment and maintenance during the bad times.

    And Germany always invests in High-Capital output industries during Bad times (the crowd out issue works BOTH ways) and it pays its dividends since electricity and transport capacity and consumer, as per the nature of "efficient" capitalism, good demand increases as the cost of Production decreased while gov't stimulus pushes forth growth.

    Increased Gov't spending during "good times" = Bad

    Increased Gov't spending during "bad times", especially in industries of Social Overhead Capital, = Good.

    Economics is not a "simple" study, but it certainly is not atrociously over complicated.

    It's gotten to the point where I'm far more interested in Chemistry and Neurobiology (and their linkages) since I've spent the ages of 16-21 dedicated to the study of Economics and the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns has showed me there is a limit to the study. And as John Stuart Mill, who read all the contemporary texts on Economics at the age of 12 (according to: The Great Wordly Philosphers), thanks to his great father, I find the study itself now dissapointing.

    Of course Partisan push-back will always be present, but that does not at all mean it is accurate or even worth an articulate response.

    But, that's just my two sense.
    And what you described is classic Keynesianism, isn't it? Stimulus during bad times, pay off the debt during good times...the Goldilocks economy. Neither too hot nor too cold, neither too bad nor too good.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  6. #196
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Glen Contrarian;1063491051]Part 1 of my reply:



    Really? So it was private investment - and not the biggest government stimulus in history (also known as WWII) - that got us out of the Depression? And our economy was actually tanking during the 1950's when our top marginal tax rate was 90%, and during the 1960's when our top marginal tax rate was 70%?

    Private investment is crucial, guy - there's no argument there - BUT today's conservatives seem to have forgotten the equally crucial role that the government plays in building the nation's economy. When I was a young man in college, when Carter was president, a very common saying among the conservatives of the day (and I was very much a conservative then) was "We just need a good war". Why did we conservatives say that? Because we all understood the stimulative effect that government spending (especially on infrastructure) had on the nation's economy. We didn't really want another war - Vietnam was still an open wound and none of us wanted to take a chance on the Cold War turning hot - but we knew that when the government invested in infrastructure, all Americans benefited.

    Sorry, I don't understand people like you who are fixated on rates/percentages and not what people actually paid. I couldn't care less what the rates are or were it is what people actually pay that is matters and the reality is 47-50% of American income earners most making 50000 or less aren't paying ANY Federal Income Taxes and the top 5% are paying most of them. That fact escapes low information voters.

    You also have no concept as to what your taxes fund, infrastructure is mostly funded by gasoline taxes which the govt. in its infinite wisdom put on budget like they did with SS and Medicare so politicians had the power to spend it as they saw fit mostly on social items that bought votes.


    REALLY? Let me guess - you're what, no more than, say, 35 years old? Because if you were much older, you'd probably remember that during the 1992 election we were still trying to recover from a recession that had started in 1990. It had officially ended in 1991...but just as we're still recovering from the Great Recession even though it officially ended in August 2009 (yes, that's when it officially ended), in 1992 we were still recovering from the 1990 recession...which is why "It's the economy, stupid" cost Bush 41 the election. And I've said MANY times that I give Bush 41 more credit than Clinton for the mid-90's economic boom.
    In December 1992 the economic growth in this country was 4.2% which looks more like a recovery should look after a recession. Keep calling this the Great Recession as I am sure it makes you feel good but I was in my late 30's early 40's during the 81-82 recession and that one was much, much worse affecting every American because of the high misery index(inflation plus unemployment) and it was Reagan leadership that got us out of that recession as well as leading to the largest electoral landslide victory in U.S. History. Keep denying reality. You simply have no idea what you are talking about nor do you understand leadership. How did this recession affect you and your family compared to how 17.5% interest rates and high inflation of the early 80's? Right, this recession didn't affect you and your family as it had record low interest rates and low inflation.

    Not only that, but while Reagan did inherit an economic mess (which, while it was NOWHERE nearly as bad as the Great Recession y'all handed Obama, was not something that could be blamed on either party - see "lasting effects of Arab Oil Embargo"), neither Reagan NOR Bush 43 inherited a huge economic deficit. In fact, the SURPLUS that Bush inherited was big enough that it was calculated that it would pay of our nation's ENTIRE debt by 2012!
    Your opinion noted, wrong but it is your opinion. I am waiting for you to show me the Clinton surplus using Treasury data

    Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

    While you are at it learn what constitutes the deficit and what was added to the debt?

    You people have a serious problem understanding basic civics and economics and show over and over again that endless facts showing the official numbers have no place in your partisan world.


    So...what happened to that mighty surplus that Bush 43 inherited, that was going to pay off our entire national debt by 2012? Hm?
    Of course that is why Obama has added 6.8 trillion to the debt in 6 years, all Bush's fault and all because that evil GW Bush bullied his way back into the WH and spent all that money and held up all those shovels for those shovel ready jobs that never arrived.



    Because we are STILL recovering from the Great Recession, guy...in addition to the little fact that Obama's having to deal with the MOST obstructionist Congress since the Civil War, one in which the Republicans have forgotten how it was a truly massive government economic stimulus (also called WWII) that pulled us out of the Depression.
    Exactly right, it was Bush's fault with a Democrat congress controlling the legislation and purse strings from January 2007-2008, and even though the Democrats controlled the Congress from 2009-2011 it is the Republican House's fault for stopping the Obama stimulus, Obama take over of GM/Chrysler, Obama recycling of TARP money, Obama's ACA program, Obama's supplemental expenses of Afghanistan, Obama's bailout of Freddie and Fannie, oh, wait those programs were approved. Wonder what it was that Obama wanted that the GOP prevented? Hmmm



    You need to go re-check your 'facts'...because you really show a lack of understanding of even recent economic history. I used to be like you - I used to be a strong conservative. I understand why you think as you do...but you've apparently zero clue as to why we liberals think as we do.
    yeah, you are right, I learn a lot from liberals every day, how to re-write history, how to ignore actual results, how to distort and divert. I do know why liberals think like they do, they use their heart instead of their brain ignoring logic and common sense.

  7. #197
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    I don't respond well to taunts. It isn't that I can't explain my position. It is that I don't consider it worth the effort in this case.
    Considering how you not only respond to other similar "taunts" and how you certainly have offered a few of your own, I'd say the more likely reason you choose not to respond is that you know the right answer, but you cannot allow yourself to post that answer because it goes against everything you personally want to believe.
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  8. #198
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Part 2 of my reply:



    Jealousy? Let me get this straight - the Democratic party is strongest in almost EVERY ethnic and demographic group except for older white males...but the REASON all the other ethnic and demographic groups are majority-Dem is because they're 'jealous'? Do you not see the silliness of the concept? Here's another example: What's the single most economically-successful ethnic group? Asians, right? Right. And if they're the most successful, would they be 'jealous' of the success of whites? NOT likely. And what party does the socially-conservative Asian community support to an ever-increasing degree? The Democratic party. Think about that one for a while.

    And "ignorance"? Lemme see here - which side is it that increasingly insists on creationism being taught in schools, that almost to a man believes that 98% of the world's climatologists (and over 90% of the rest of the world's scientists) are lying about climate change, that wants to slash school funding, that thinks that teachers are getting paid too much? Oh, right - the CONSERVATIVES. And what states generally have the LOWEST educational attainment? RED states.

    Yet y'all try to call us 'ignorant'.

    And as far as the numbers go...remember, Bush 43 was handed a SURPLUS that would have paid off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012. What did he do as soon as he could? Slashed taxes and sent us on an illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq, among other things. How was our economy when Bush 43 took office, as compared to when Bush 43 left office? In other words, guy, y'all have NO room to speak.



    Y'know what? I did make a mistake - I did overstate how many jobs have been created under Obama, and that's no one's fault but my own - thank you for pointing that out. NOW, look to yourself - because you seem to have conveniently forgotten that when Obama first took the oath of office, we were LOSING over half million jobs PER MONTH. Our economy was in free fall, in the worst economic trouble we'd been in for EIGHTY FREAKING YEARS.

    Not only did YOUR boys take a surplus that SHOULD have paid off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012 and turn it into the largest deficit in American history (yes, the Bush 2009 budget did include what is STILL the largest deficit in our history)...but YOUR boys also decided to oppose every freaking thing that Obama tried to do to fix the economy...which has resulted in the most obstructionist Congress since the Civil War. It's doggone hard to fix the economy when half the government - the Republican half - does everything they can to gum up the people who ARE trying to fix the economy.

    Here's a WONDERFUL example: Obama tried to take away the tax break that corporations were getting for outsourcing our jobs overseas...and the Republicans filibustered it, refused to let us take that tax break away from the corporations! This was in something like 2010...and our recovery was then still very weak...and Obama was trying to keep corporations from shipping American jobs overseas...and what did the Republicans do? They FILIBUSTERED it! It's been the same old story the whole time: whatever Obama does, it must be wrong or evil or corrupt or scandalous or stupid or bad. Thou Shalt Not give him credit for doing ANYTHING right!

    And you know what? I saw this coming back in the early 1990's...when I first really began rethinking why it was I was a conservative. I saw then how my fellow conservatives were hating liberals not for what the liberals were doing or supporting...but because they were liberals. I saw it when the Republicans laughed with glee when Oliver North got away with Iran-Contra, with what would today have rightly been called treason. I saw it when Strom Thurmond warned Clinton not to come to his state because he couldn't promise that the president wouldn't be shot (which btw was recently repeated against Hillary). And these are but two of the many, many examples of how the Right was going down the wrong path. And I could not allow myself to remain part of a group that hates just for the sake of hate.
    Facts simply refute your rhetoric and basic lack of understanding of civics and economic. Tell me exactly what the Democrat Controlled Congress that took office in January 2007 did to prevent the recession that began in December 2007? Tell me exactly what legislation they proposed that Bush vetoed that would have prevented that recession? You have a very selective memory that tells you what you want to believe.

    You keep spouting the surplus story but no matter how many times you post it doesn't make it right. Clinton took office with a 4.4 trillion dollar debt and left it at 5.7 trillion. Don't see any surplus reducing those numbers nor do I see any economic policies in place today that prevented 6.8 trillion dollars being added to the debt.

    The liberal play book, take away tax breaks for those that create jobs, create economic growth, and produce the engine that drives the U.S. economy. That is liberal logic and people who believe that businesses and individuals have money trees in their back yard so they can print whatever they need.

    I don't hate liberals, I feel sorry for them. I grew up a liberal democrat and learned how all that spending in the name of compassion actually worked, providing only compassion for liberal bureaucrats to retain power. Unlike you I understand that the American people need their money more than the Federal Govt. why is it I never get an answer from liberals as to how much in state federal and local taxes should an individual pay out of their paycheck? It really is too bad you don't get it.

  9. #199
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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    No, what happened is you're confusing the numbers with the rate of growth. While the raw numbers were higher, the rate of growth of the tax revenue was slashed...which meant it could not keep up with what the government was spending...

    ...which is why, although Bush 43 inherited a surplus that was estimated to pay off our ENTIRE national debt by 2012, by the end of his eight years, he'd turned it into what is today still the biggest deficit in American history - the 2009 budget (which was written by Bush).

    AGAIN, if high taxes are SO bad, why is it that our economy boomed in the 1950's with a 90% top marginal tax rate? And if government spending is SO bad, why is it that WWII pulled us out of the Depression instead of sinking us even further into the Depression, since WWII was pretty much COMPLETELY government-funded?
    Rate of growth? So it is rate of growth that matters to you, why? Apparently it is important for you to have rate of growth equal to the amount of Federal spending because all that federal spending on top of state and local spending is necessary and the American people keeping more of what they earn is the problem and requires more spending, on what?

    Tired of the surplus argument and the tax rate argument which means nothing because they are both strawman arguments with the surplus being a lie and tax rates not equal to tax revenue collected.

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    Re: US economy adds 288,000 jobs in June

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Considering how you not only respond to other similar "taunts" and how you certainly have offered a few of your own, I'd say the more likely reason you choose not to respond is that you know the right answer, but you cannot allow yourself to post that answer because it goes against everything you personally want to believe.
    You would be incorrect about that and, no, I'm not going to get into it with you.

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