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Protesters block buses carrying undocumented immigrants in California

ocean515 said:
Nothing there changes my opinion. Thanks for the link though.
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You're welcome for the link, though I'm sorry it failed to communicate big businesses interests in open borders to you.
 
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What if...? said:
So if someone crosses the border they're causing wage suppression but if a business owner takes your job across the border they're just good businessmen?
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well, it's not actually your job. it's employment you had been willing to do at a specified location for specified compensation
you would probably be welcome to follow that job you had been performing, assuming you are willing to accept the wage rate at the new location said job to be performed
welcome to the realities of comparative advantage
and some of the outcomes are positive
such as the expenditures on apparel. the asians have decimated the American textile industry. bad for textile/affiliated industry workers, but good for consumers
graph clothing cost decline.jpg
 
Montecresto said:
You welcome for the link, though I'm sorry it failed to communicate big businesses interests in open borders to you.
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My disagreement centers on who "Big Business" is supposed to be, and why they would advocate for open borders.

In my opinion, the open borders idea is being pushed by those forces who have "Social Justice" agendas to sell.
 
justabubba said:
well, it's not actually your job. it's employment you had been willing to do at a specified location for specified compensation
you would probably be welcome to follow that job you had been performing, assuming you are willing to accept the wage rate at the new location said job to be performed
welcome to the realities of comparative advantage
and some of the outcomes are positive
such as the expenditures on apparel. the asians have decimated the American textile industry. bad for textile/affiliated industry workers, but good for consumers
View attachment 67169385
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Still don't see the functional difference. Wage depression is the result in both cases.

Illegals cost us money is services, outsourcers cost us revenue from taxes.

Two sides of the same coin.

And I'm still not convinced consumers are getting as good a deal as we're being told. Seems like we're getting lower quality at a lower price, which has always been the case.
 
gdgyva said:
maybe one day

when people stock flocking over that border,

right now, our major problem is the southern border

or do you think the canadian border allows more illegals in?
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Its longer and more hospitable.

The govt has failed miserably to stop drug importation, so...
 
justabubba said:
why not instead offer a 'bounty' to those (usually co-workers) who identify to ICE the illegals who are being illegally employed. that bounty would be paid from the illegal employer's fine
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Something like that. I'm convinced that's the route to take, go after those who employ them. They're the criminals in this scenario.
Besides, if capitalism has any lessons the first must be that as long as there's a demand, the supply will happen.
 
What if...? said:
Still don't see the functional difference. Wage depression is the result in both cases.

Illegals cost us money is services, outsourcers cost us revenue from taxes.

Two sides of the same coin.

And I'm still not convinced consumers are getting as good a deal as we're being told. Seems like we're getting lower quality at a lower price, which has always been the case.
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actually two different scenarios

in one instance, the employer acted legally in moving across the border to a lower wage rate locale

in the other, the employee relocated illegally to work a job illegally

hardly the same coin
 
Grand Mal said:
Something like that. I'm convinced that's the route to take, go after those who employ them. They're the criminals in this scenario.
Besides, if capitalism has any lessons the first must be that as long as there's a demand, the supply will happen.
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Employers should be able to hire whomever they choose. What we need is a modern day Bracero program in place.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Employers should be able to hire whomever they choose. What we need is a modern day Bracero program in place.
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Let's not, it was just slavery warmed over. We do need a migrant visa program that is enforceable and strictly enforced in it's treatment of migrants. We should not allow migrant families. The individual comes here, works, and is treated like any other American worker in conditions and pay, then they return home to their families.
 
justabubba said:
actually two different scenarios

in one instance, the employer acted legally in moving across the border to a lower wage rate locale

in the other, the employee relocated illegally to work a job illegally

hardly the same coin
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Being able to arrange for it to be legal doesn't change the fact that its functionally the same thing.
 
clownboy said:
Let's not, it was just slavery warmed over. We do need a migrant visa program that is enforceable and strictly enforced in it's treatment of migrants. We should not allow migrant families. The individual comes here, works, and is treated like any other American worker in conditions and pay, then they return home to their families.
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The Bracero program was good economically, and cut down illegal immigration by over 90%. That's not to say the program didn't have issues (like abuse), but those are bugs we can work out. A Job is a zero Sum game, Jobs however are not, because when you get to the plural, you have to consider all the conditions that make Job creation possible.
Immigrants, even illegal ones, contribute to the conservation of Resources, they make labor costs cheaper, thus a businesses has more money to spend on other things, they can expand their enterprise, and hire Americans to do more skills-intensive work. Which is good, because most Americans aren't the low-skilled sort, they're in the middle, while immigrants are stratified into low or high. They compliment what we lack, and make more economic activity possible.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Employers should be able to hire whomever they choose. What we need is a modern day Bracero program in place.
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Including illegal immigrants? They must be breaking some law- if not, then it's all just for show. There's no real will to fix the situation.
 
HenryChinaski said:
The Bracero program was good economically, and cut down illegal immigration by over 90%. That's not to say the program didn't have issues (like abuse), but those are bugs we can work out. A Job is a zero Sum game, Jobs however are not, because when you get to the plural, you have to consider all the conditions that make Job creation possible.
Immigrants, even illegal ones, contribute to the conservation of Resources, they make labor costs cheaper, thus a businesses has more money to spend on other things, they can expand their enterprise, and hire Americans to do more skills-intensive work. Which is good, because most Americans aren't the low-skilled sort, they're in the middle, while immigrants are stratified into low or high. They compliment what we lack, and make more economic activity possible.
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You seem to have a picture in your mind of immigrant labor being used for nothing but picking strawberries, or digging ditches. Illegal aliens by the most part shun those jobs for much higher paying jobs in construction and manufacturing. Those are jobs formerly staffed by legal citizens.
 
Grand Mal said:
Including illegal immigrants? They must be breaking some law- if not, then it's all just for show. There's no real will to fix the situation.
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Yes an employer should be able hire whomever they choose. Economic protectionism has no place in a free market. America had open borders, for 140 years. America for over a century was de facto the world's largest free trade zone, and every faucet of our power and our wealth derives from that 18th and 19th century legacy. Immigrants are a boon to the economy(legal or otherwise). If adding people was simply an expense, we'd see chronic economic unemployment and growth problems every year when a large part of young Americans suddenly became old enough to join the work force, which is itself a far larger number than we get in immigrants each year, legal or illegal.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Yes an employer should be able hire whomever they choose. Economic protectionism has no place in a free market. America had open borders, for 140 years. America for over a century was de facto the world's largest free trade zone, and every faucet of our power and our wealth derives from that 18th and 19th century legacy. Immigrants are a boon to the economy(legal or otherwise). If adding people was simply an expense, we'd see chronic economic unemployment and growth problems every year when a large part of young Americans suddenly became old enough to join the work force, which is itself a far larger number than we get in immigrants each year, legal or illegal.
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Yes it did. And each new class of immigrant was given the slavery treatment. You appear to be fine with that or have otherwise ignored it. The Bracero program was nothing different. It institutionalized slavery (something FDR had absolutely no problem with) and there were still illegal aliens by the score, making things like Operation Wetback a necessity.

Again, we do need a legitimate migrant visa. NOT to hold those folks in near slavery, but to allow them to come, work and GO HOME in a seasonal fashion. That takes significant enforcement to keep the farmers and seasonal employers from doing end runs. AND we still need to be solid on enforcement of our other immigration law.
 
What if...? said:
So if someone crosses the border they're causing wage suppression but if a business owner takes your job across the border they're just good businessmen?
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maybe if the government hadn't driven them across the border to begin with. they went across the border for a reason.
 
What if...? said:
Its longer and more hospitable.

The govt has failed miserably to stop drug importation, so...
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the canadian border is longer

but that doesnt answer my question

do you believe that more illegals cross the canadian border?

do you believe more drugs cross the canadian border?

our problem is to the south....that may not be PC, but it is true

the estimations i have read put the number at over 300k annually crossing from the south

that to me, is a HUGE issue
 
ocean515 said:
My disagreement centers on who "Big Business" is supposed to be, and why they would advocate for open borders.

In my opinion, the open borders idea is being pushed by those forces who have "Social Justice" agendas to sell.
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I think your opinion is anchored to your bias.



Frank Keating, head of the American Bankers Association, has finally come clean about big business' ultimate immigration reform goal — totally open borders with the unrestricted movement of millions of foreign workers into the United States.

Immigration Reform: American Bankers Association Chief Calls for Open Borders and Amnesty | Center for Immigration Studies
 
What if...? said:
Being able to arrange for it to be legal doesn't change the fact that its functionally the same thing.
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the two remain very different, actually
the employer who moves for lower costs of labor does so legally. our nation has no right to deprive him of that border crossing

the employee comes here illegally in search of work. our country has an authority to deprive him of that employment. whether we have the will to exercise that authority is central to this discussion
 
Montecresto said:
I think your opinion is anchored to your bias.



Frank Keating, head of the American Bankers Association, has finally come clean about big business' ultimate immigration reform goal — totally open borders with the unrestricted movement of millions of foreign workers into the United States.

Immigration Reform: American Bankers Association Chief Calls for Open Borders and Amnesty | Center for Immigration Studies
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Bias can be formed in many ways. It's not a good idea to assume it's always ideological.

An uneducated illiterate workforce is somewhat useless related to what is needed. Massive sums of money are in play to push a One World Social Justice Economic model. Absorbing the cost of other countries liabilities is part of that game. Those liabilities are not just monetary, but they are also human.

For example, here in Southern California, "Spanification" of a workforce (Meaning Spanish as the common language in the workforce) is a real and economically damaging result of the governments refusal to enforce immigration laws already on the books. Of course, then there is the harm that has been done to public education, etc.

The suggestion that illegal aliens made legal will help secure Social Security and other entitlement programs is laughable at best. In my experience, most illegal aliens use stolen or fraudulent ID's, and have SS and other taxes withheld, which they will never collect.
 
ocean515 said:
Bias can be formed in many ways. It's not a good idea to assume it's always ideological.

An uneducated illiterate workforce is somewhat useless related to what is needed. Massive sums of money are in play to push a One World Social Justice Economic model. Absorbing the cost of other countries liabilities is part of that game. Those liabilities are not just monetary, but they are also human.

For example, here in Southern California, "Spanification" of a workforce (Meaning Spanish as the common language in the workforce) is a real and economically damaging result of the governments refusal to enforce immigration laws already on the books. Of course, then there is the harm that has been done to public education, etc.

The suggestion that illegal aliens made legal will help secure Social Security and other entitlement programs is laughable at best. In my experience, most illegal aliens use stolen or fraudulent ID's, and have SS and other taxes withheld, which they will never collect.
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The government has refused to enforce laws already on the books for decades. That's because it's not in the interest of big business, and both parties pander to big business. Said it several different ways, proved to you that it's what big business is pushing, as pointed out in Keating's statement above, it's the epitome of globalization, but have it your way ocean.
 
Montecresto said:
The government has refused to enforce laws already on the books for decades. That's because it's not in the interest of big business, and both parties pander to big business. Said it several different ways, proved to you that it's what big business is pushing, as pointed out in Keating's statement above, it's the epitome of globalization, but have it your way ocean.
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Thanks for the effort, but yes I will have it my way, as I see a much bigger picture at play. You're seeing just Big Business, I'm suggesting it goes way beyond that.

The World Economic Forum
 
ludin said:
maybe if the government hadn't driven them across the border to begin with. they went across the border for a reason.
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So do the illegals.

And they offshored for cheap labor, the regulation and tax thing simply doesn't measure up to 32 semi skilled laborers for 14-16 hrs/day out the door for what one burger flipper gets here for eight (plus labor burden). A whole factory's worth of labor for what they pay one here.

They did it the second it became technologically feasible.
 
gdgyva said:
the canadian border is longer

but that doesnt answer my question

do you believe that more illegals cross the canadian border?

do you believe more drugs cross the canadian border?

our problem is to the south....that may not be PC, but it is true

the estimations i have read put the number at over 300k annually crossing from the south

that to me, is a HUGE issue
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I agree its a problem.

I find it suspiscious that our society is being taught to hate people for simply trying to make a better life for themselves instead of those who created jobs for them.

In a world where e-verify exists, bankrupting a few folks for using illegal labor would send a message clear enough that it would dry up the jobs. And if they can't work they won't come. The stragglers can be dealt with.
 
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