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Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

They haven't lost access to anything. Where in the ruling does it say a woman can no longer get birth control?

I'm not a drama queen. You're claiming abortions will skyrocket, and now you're claiming that women lost access to birth control. Think about it. That's drama. Especially because neither statement is true.

Ok....I never claimed "abortions will skyrocket"...that is just more drama queen stuff. I said abortions will increase. That is just plain simple logic 101.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

You're claiming the KKK is both a business and a religious institution. That seems a little over the top, but then I'm not an expert on the KKK

I am claiming that KKK beliefs are based on a theology, just as the HL beliefs are purported to be. I didn't define them as a religious institution, though that might be one way to take my post if you make assumptions.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Non-discrimination laws and covering 4 methods of birth control in an insurance plan aren't even in the same hemisphere of discussion.

Why not?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Ok....I never claimed "abortions will skyrocket"...that is just more drama queen stuff. I said abortions will increase. That is just plain simple logic 101.

You never proved your logic, and you were saying HL had "blood on their hands". You don't think that's dramatic?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Reading through some of the replies on this thread you'd think that the SC just banned birth control across the board.

The ruling basically means that companies that have a religious objection to providing insurance plans that cover birth control to their employees can select a plan that does not provide that coverage. I don't know what percentage of women this will actually effect but I'm guessing it is very low. Not only that, this has no effect on the unemployed who will be getting *free* coverage. So don't rush out and buy stock in the abortion industry in anticipation of a boom in the market because of this ruling. The lines at the abortion clinic won't be any longer than they are right now.

It is actually even smaller than that. It is closely controlled corporations so a publicly traded corporation as of now cannot object based on religious grounds.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge


Because this case wasn't about discrimination. It was about requiring an employer to pay for something that they didn't want to pay for. Birth control isn't a Constitutional right. Freedom from discrimination is a Constitutional right.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Hi there Polgara, I'm not sure it's that small actually.

Here's how the IRS defines "closely held corporation":

Has more than 50% of the value of its outstanding stock owned (directly or indirectly) by 5 or fewer individuals at any time during the last half of the tax year; and
Is not a personal service corporation.
Basically, "closely held" is a term that covers as much as 90 percent (or more) of all businesses, according to a 2000 study.


A LOT of people could be affected by the Supreme Court’s birth control decision — theoretically - The Washington Post

I don't know. Maybe many small businesses fall under that heading so it might be higher. Do most of those small businesses provide health care - again, I don't know. I understand that BC pills are provided for free at Planned Parenthood, though, so cost should not be a factor for most.

Greetings, Montecresto. :2wave:
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I am claiming that KKK beliefs are based on a theology, just as the HL beliefs are purported to be. I didn't define them as a religious institution, though that might be one way to take my post if you make assumptions.
The KKK's beliefs are based on hatred. Neither hatred nor the KKK has any relevance to the topic but why let that stop you from trying to project a false association in an attempt to establish "guilt by".
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I am claiming that KKK beliefs are based on a theology, just as the HL beliefs are purported to be. I didn't define them as a religious institution, though that might be one way to take my post if you make assumptions.

Fair enough - we'll leave it at that - deal?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

China & the KKK. How did we stray so far off this ruling?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Is it correct that this only affects the "morning after" pill, or is that :bs: It seems that all the employees will still have employer-paid health care, so I call that a win, dollar-wise, against a few who will have to pay for their own birth-control pills. One of the big complaints about the ACA was the fact that men were required to pay for things like birth-control, that they never would have need to use, so this seems fair.

Greetings, JasperL. :2wave:

Greeting to you Polgara:2wave:

I can't see anything that limits the decision at all, not to contraception anyway. There is no reason that another employer can't deny any and all coverage for anything birth control related. I can't see why an employer couldn't prohibit coverage for single women and allow it for married women, if that's what their religion demands. And what Ginsberg pointed out is that the reasoning, if applied broadly, could lead to some insane conclusions. The ruling says over and over, this is limited, this is limited, we five men only mean to apply this to drugs used by wimmens for their lady parts, not REAL healthcare needs like vaccinations and other important stuff. So it strikes me as poorly reasoned on its face and obviously result oriented. Sort of like the Gore v. Bush ruling where they said, ONLY THIS TIME!! Please don't cite for precedence!

But yes, I don't actually care about the ruling all that much, and even with the 'loss' here, the ACA is a big win for women overall. It seems the better route would have been for Congress (the Senate) to have passed the exception that I think passed the House that would have allowed businesses to exempt out of contraception, then the law would have taxpayers fund the coverage. But as I recall, the religious orgs were opposed to even that compromise and demanded that mandatory coverage for contraception be stripped altogether as it applied to their employees.

Anyway, more than anything I am concerned that the door is now open for profit making corporations to make religious claims, and no matter how much people say otherwise, there are an an almost infinite number of crazy things people might be able to justify with religious beliefs. I hope the impact is as limited as the ruling predicts it will be.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Greeting to you Polgara:2wave:

I can't see anything that limits the decision at all, not to contraception anyway. There is no reason that another employer can't deny any and all coverage for anything birth control related. I can't see why an employer couldn't prohibit coverage for single women and allow it for married women, if that's what their religion demands. And what Ginsberg pointed out is that the reasoning, if applied broadly, could lead to some insane conclusions. The ruling says over and over, this is limited, this is limited, we five men only mean to apply this to drugs used by wimmens for their lady parts, not REAL healthcare needs like vaccinations and other important stuff. So it strikes me as poorly reasoned on its face and obviously result oriented. Sort of like the Gore v. Bush ruling where they said, ONLY THIS TIME!! Please don't cite for precedence!

But yes, I don't actually care about the ruling all that much, and even with the 'loss' here, the ACA is a big win for women overall. It seems the better route would have been for Congress (the Senate) to have passed the exception that I think passed the House that would have allowed businesses to exempt out of contraception, then the law would have taxpayers fund the coverage. But as I recall, the religious orgs were opposed to even that compromise and demanded that mandatory coverage for contraception be stripped altogether as it applied to their employees.

Anyway, more than anything I am concerned that the door is now open for profit making corporations to make religious claims, and no matter how much people say otherwise, there are an an almost infinite number of crazy things people might be able to justify with religious beliefs. I hope the impact is as limited as the ruling predicts it will be.

Taking human nature into account, you're probably right! Somebody will just have to test it! :lol: Using Roe v Wade as an example, this will go on for years!
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Equal protection under the law is guaranteed under the constitution. Such a company would not be able to trump such a right. Birth control is not guaranteed by the constitution.

Tell all your liberal friends on FB and twitter that this is a stupid argument. FFS.



What if a company claims that their religious beliefs preclude equal treatment of blacks or gays? Would you be just as OK with that?
Some Muslims beliefs include Sharia Law. Is following that also "protected by the Constitution"?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

The KKK's beliefs are based on hatred. Neither hatred nor the KKK has any relevance to the topic but why let that stop you from trying to project a false association in an attempt to establish "guilt by".

That's just not necessarily true. The Court can't say that being against, say, racial integration is based on hatred and not on a sincere religious belief. I've debated people online in a local forum that make some pretty astounding religious claims against integration. I think they're nuts, but there is no doubt laws against mixed marriages were based on religious beliefs, and the Court can't get into the business of deciding what is and is not a sincere religious belief. They say in the ruling that they must assume that an asserted belief is sincerely held, so long as it's consistent, etc. Ginsberg notes the Court has ruled on claims of discrimination based on religious beliefs, in fact.

That's the problem with opening this door. Religions can be infinitely crazy, and assert a functionally unlimited number of absurd claims. And now the SC has just set a very high bar for resolving them.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Equal protection under the law is guaranteed under the constitution. Such a company would not be able to trump such a right. Birth control is not guaranteed by the constitution.

Tell all your liberal friends on FB and twitter that this is a stupid argument. FFS.

Actually Hobby Lobby does cover birth control. It is just the morning after pill they are balking at so 99% of birth control is covered by health insurance after all. The decision won't make any difference since employees will get the extra coverage anyway, Hobby Lobby just won't be paying for it.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Equal protection under the law is guaranteed under the constitution. Such a company would not be able to trump such a right. Birth control is not guaranteed by the constitution.

Tell all your liberal friends on FB and twitter that this is a stupid argument. FFS.

The Court ruled on religious claims conflicting with a law applied to the general population. It has nothing to do with birth control, except that was the topic of the religious claim. But Muslim owned businesses can certainly assert laws that violate Sharia Law should be invalidated.

And who are you to say a person can't hold sincerely held religious views that require them to not serve interracial couples because they disapprove of them marrying? It conflicts with the Civil Rights Acts and perhaps other laws, but the Congress and now SC say your religious views trump those laws in some cases.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I don't know. Maybe many small businesses fall under that heading so it might be higher. Do most of those small businesses provide health care - again, I don't know. I understand that BC pills are provided for free at Planned Parenthood, though, so cost should not be a factor for most.

Greetings, Montecresto. :2wave:

That's what the study seems to support, I suppose it will be apparent in time.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Actually Hobby Lobby does cover birth control. It is just the morning after pill they are balking at so 99% of birth control is covered by health insurance after all. The decision won't make any difference since employees will get the extra coverage anyway, Hobby Lobby just won't be paying for it.

Yes, but other companies have no obligation to cover 16/20 or even 1/20. They could cover zero. And the employees may get the extra coverage but there is nothing in the order requiring it, just that Congress CAN cover those employees if they want.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

The worker?

I'm a worker and I've done just fine without a union representing me.

There's a reason that the private workforce s less than 7% unionized.

It's the same reason wages have gone to pot for the working man.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Because this case wasn't about discrimination. It was about requiring an employer to pay for something that they didn't want to pay for. Birth control isn't a Constitutional right. Freedom from discrimination is a Constitutional right.

Freedom from the government discriminating against you is a Constitutional right in regard to specific things. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents an employer from discriminating against you. Anti-Discrimination laws are all legislation- normal statutory law.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Their previous plan is irrelevant to the discussion here. SCOTUS doesn't rule on what someone's plan covered in the past.

If any woman who wants one of those four drugs can't live without their insurance paying, then they should leave Hobby Lobby and work elsewhere. Or decide which birth control method that's covered they DO like.

Hobby Lobby's plan isn't actually relevant, past or current, it was just interesting they were soooo burdened by covering two of the 4 that they did cover them for years without noticing.

But the specific plan of HL doesn't matter, because now thousands of businesses can not cover any or some or all, depending, and it's unreasonable to think in this economy those at the bottom can just change jobs till they get perfect coverage. So it will affect access, we just have to decide whether and how much we care, if any.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Sadly, this decision will probably result in an increase in abortions. Good job Christian lobby group!

Given that HL is still and has always provided over a dozen different contraceptives, how does not covering the cost of the specific 4 methods/drugs result in an increase in abortions? At no point are the women denied access to these 4 methods/drugs and they have all the other means available to them. HL saying that they won't cover the cost of these few things only means that the women have to come up with the money for them themselves, sort of like they have to come up with the money for food, and clothes and shelter....

Not ANY corporation, but certainly religion based ones. This decision by its face = less access to birth control for people who work for these corporations. HL may currently provide it....but this ruling certainly invites religion based companies to refuse to provide ANY....and don't think for a second that they aren't going to leap on this.

Improper premise. No access has been lessened. There is nothing that stops an individual from seeking the drug/method from another source. Access simply means whether or not a person can legally obtain said item. I have no legal access to heroin, but I do have access to aspirin, assuming that I can pay for it. Also if they can't afford the birth control on their own how are they going to afford the abortion?

Not at all. A corporation should not be able to make medical decisions for their employees.

They're not. At no point is any corporation saying that a person can't get this or that. If any corporation is saying that it's the insurances and not HL
 
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