• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
This is of a piece with some on the abortion threads who were claiming people should arm themselves and simply mow down abortion clinic protestors if they get in their way following the Supreme Court's ruling on buffer zones. Remarkable that those bleating about taking away guns from law abiding citizens now want to arm themselves so they can murder protestors they don't like.

A spurned liberal is truly a dangerous animal.
Click to expand...

Are we seeing all of this over a 5 or 10 dollar box of birth control pills? You would think the ruling today banned all birth control in the entire United States forever. It just said a family owned business for religious reasons can opt out of including contraceptives in their health insurance plans. Which by the way they, the family owned business is paying for.

How many people does their ruling effect, perhaps one percent at the most. more like a tenth of one percent if that. So if you do not work for Hobby Lobby and maybe some other religious family owned business, this ruling has no effect on you. If you do work for Hobby Lobby and it is so important that birth control pills be part of the insurance packaged offered, then quit and go to another company that offers what you want. After all this is America and no one is forcing anyone to continue to work for Hobby Lobby if they do not want to.

Dang reading some of these posts you would think the whole contraceptive industry was done away with.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
You seem to be fully aware of business practice/law in China so it shouldn't be any bother for you to provide links to help the rest of us out. Specifically, I'd like some proof that Hobby Lobby actually owns business enterprises in China and specific proof that the Chinese government requires them to provide the forms of birth control that Hobby Lobby actually sued the US government over.

If you can't, I'll just assume that you're making stuff up.
Click to expand...

I wasn't the one who made the claim. I thought you accepted that the claim was true based on your own knowledge, and I based my own acceptance of it on your acceptance of it. That is, your response had an implied stipulation that the claim was true, and my response followed on with the same implied stipulation. If you are now challenging whether or not it is true, and now basing your objection to the criticism of Hobby Lobby on that, then I will leave you to settle that matter with the original poster. If you do find out it is true, then my post here will again apply.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

tres borrachos said:
She is vulgar, crass, disgusting, and perverse. I'm not a prude, but even I had to draw the line at her garbage.

She acts like someone was killed. And her hysterics over this ruling are pathalogically sick.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking that maybe God has turned up the heat, and the popcorn is responding accordingly. ;)
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Perotista said:
Are we seeing all of this over a 5 or 10 dollar box of birth control pills? You would think the ruling today banned all birth control in the entire United States forever. It just said a family owned business for religious reasons can opt out of including contraceptives in their health insurance plans. Which by the way they, the family owned business is paying for.

How many people does their ruling effect, perhaps one percent at the most. more like a tenth of one percent if that. So if you do not work for Hobby Lobby and maybe some other religious family owned business, this ruling has no effect on you. If you do work for Hobby Lobby and it is so important that birth control pills be part of the insurance packaged offered, then quit and go to another company that offers what you want. After all this is America and no one is forcing anyone to continue to work for Hobby Lobby if they do not want to.

Dang reading some of these posts you would think the whole contraceptive industry was done away with.
Click to expand...

Good evening Pero - one of the funniest parts for me is that had this ruling gone the other way, Hobby Lobby and others like them might very well have just totally eliminated their funding of employer provided healthcare and simply paid the penalties, which are likely far less in total business cost. As a result of this ruling, many thousands of Hobby Lobby employees get to keep their healthcare plan - actually putting some truth behind Obama's words.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

tres borrachos said:
The drugs that are now eliminated from Hobby Lobby's plan are abortion-causing drugs, so are you contradicting yourself?
Click to expand...

The ruling is not limited to the 4 drugs that they were opposed to. Have you read the holding?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Dezaad said:
I wasn't the one who made the claim. I thought you accepted that the claim was true based on your own knowledge, and I based my own acceptance of it on your acceptance of it. That is, your response had an implied stipulation that the claim was true, and my response followed on with the same implied stipulation. If you are now challenging whether or not it is true, and now basing your objection to the criticism of Hobby Lobby on that, then I will leave you to settle that matter with the original poster. If you do find out it is true, then my post here will again apply.
Click to expand...

Actually, you posted your original comments prior to the other poster's additional information, so your whole narrative above is just false.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

rcart76 said:
Dezaad, you are absolutely correct. However, The SCOTUS has just went down a very dangerous road that will come back and bite them on the butt. This will fuel many organizations to hide behind their fake desires to uphold their religious beliefs.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. For example, do KKK members who own businesses get to ignore non-discrimination laws because their white-supremacist beliefs are (genuinely, I might add) religiously held? It may be. And it may be that this is exactly how it should be. If we want to curb such religious freedom, perhaps we should have to amend The Constitution. We shall see.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Fenton said:
Does the ruling state that all employees of Hobby Lobby may not purchase a Box of Condoms on their way home for work ?
Click to expand...

Nobody made that claim. Trying sticking to the conversation.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
Because American women are too stupid to purchase their own contraceptives?
Click to expand...

Not all all....but the ruling does limit access whether you like it or not. It doesn't make it impossible to get, but it certainly does limit access...that is a given.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Perotista said:
Are we seeing all of this over a 5 or 10 dollar box of birth control pills? You would think the ruling today banned all birth control in the entire United States forever. It just said a family owned business for religious reasons can opt out of including contraceptives in their health insurance plans. Which by the way they, the family owned business is paying for.

How many people does their ruling effect, perhaps one percent at the most. more like a tenth of one percent if that. So if you do not work for Hobby Lobby and maybe some other religious family owned business, this ruling has no effect on you. If you do work for Hobby Lobby and it is so important that birth control pills be part of the insurance packaged offered, then quit and go to another company that offers what you want. After all this is America and no one is forcing anyone to continue to work for Hobby Lobby if they do not want to.

Dang reading some of these posts you would think the whole contraceptive industry was done away with.
Click to expand...

Did you read that Justice Ginsburg issued a fiery 35-page dissent? Liberals sure don't like losing - even when the ruling only affects maybe one percent of the population - do they? :thumbdown:

Greetings, Pero. :2wave:
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Dezaad said:
Perhaps. For example, do KKK members who own businesses get to ignore non-discrimination laws because their white-supremacist beliefs are (genuinely, I might add) religiously held? It may be. And it may be that this is exactly how it should be. If we want to curb such religious freedom, perhaps we should have to amend The Constitution. We shall see.
Click to expand...

No hyperbole there. You'd think the Supreme Court just bolted locks on all abortion clinics throughout the US.

The total weakness of your argument is demonstrated by the utter over the top exaggeration of your response.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
Good evening Pero - one of the funniest parts for me is that had this ruling gone the other way, Hobby Lobby and others like them might very well have just totally eliminated their funding of employer provided healthcare and simply paid the penalties, which are likely far less in total business cost. As a result of this ruling, many thousands of Hobby Lobby employees get to keep their healthcare plan - actually putting some truth behind Obama's words.
Click to expand...

yeah, I kind of suspected all along if the ruling went against Hobby Lobby their entire work force would be dropped onto the exchanges. Just paying the fine I think would be a lot cheaper. Here is what the law says.

• The annual fee is $2,000 per employee if insurance isn't offered (the first 30 full-time employees are exempt).

• If at least one full-time employee receives a premium tax credit because coverage is either unaffordable or does not cover 60 percent of total costs, the employer must pay the lesser of $3,000 for each of those employees receiving a credit or $750 for each of their full-time employees total.

• The fee is a per month fee due annually on employer federal tax returns starting in 2015 for small businesses with 100 or more full-time equivalent employees(2016 for those with 50-99). So the per month fee is 1/12 of the $2,000 or $3,000 per employee.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
Because American women are too stupid to purchase their own contraceptives?
Click to expand...

It's pretty amazing people don't recognize that poor people might actually have a hard time affording effective contraception, and that might be why poor women are more likely to have unintended pregnancies and have abortions than women in the middle class and above.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

disneydude said:
Not all all....but the ruling does limit access whether you like it or not. It doesn't make it impossible to get, but it certainly does limit access...that is a given.
Click to expand...

Doesn't limit access one bit - it limits FREE access, but like the old saying "nothing worth having in life is free". The women affected get paid a salary for their work - must be full time, otherwise they wouldn't be covered - so presumably if they spend as much time planning out their budget as planning out their sexual partners for the month, they should do just fine.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
Good evening Pero - one of the funniest parts for me is that had this ruling gone the other way, Hobby Lobby and others like them might very well have just totally eliminated their funding of employer provided healthcare and simply paid the penalties, which are likely far less in total business cost. As a result of this ruling, many thousands of Hobby Lobby employees get to keep their healthcare plan - actually putting some truth behind Obama's words.
Click to expand...

Would that fall under "unintended consequences," even if it was accidental? :lol:
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

polgara said:
Did you read that Justice Ginsburg issued a fiery 35-page dissent? Liberals sure don't like losing - even when the ruling only affects maybe one percent of the population - do they? :thumbdown:

Greetings, Pero. :2wave:
Click to expand...

par for the course Pol, par for the course.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

JasperL said:
It's pretty amazing people don't recognize that poor people might actually have a hard time affording effective contraception, and that might be why poor women are more likely to have unintended pregnancies and have abortions than women in the middle class and above.
Click to expand...

How poor exactly are Hobby Lobby's employees?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

polgara said:
Did you read that Justice Ginsburg issued a fiery 35-page dissent? Liberals sure don't like losing - even when the ruling only affects maybe one percent of the population - do they? :thumbdown:

Greetings, Pero. :2wave:
Click to expand...

1%? Really? Hobby Lobby employs that many women who will need an abortion? 1% of the population of the US? Somehow I doubt it is anywhere near that number.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Here is the conversation from beginning to end (err, from end to beginning actually), from my perspective.

canadajohn said:
actually, you posted your original comments prior to the other poster's additional information, so your whole narrative above is just false.
dezaad said:
i wasn't the one who made the claim. I thought you accepted that the claim was true based on your own knowledge, and i based my own acceptance of it on your acceptance of it. That is, your response had an implied stipulation that the claim was true, and my response followed on with the same implied stipulation. If you are now challenging whether or not it is true, and now basing your objection to the criticism of hobby lobby on that, then i will leave you to settle that matter with the original poster. If you do find out it is true, then my post here will again apply.
canadajohn said:
you seem to be fully aware of business practice/law in china so it shouldn't be any bother for you to provide links to help the rest of us out. Specifically, i'd like some proof that hobby lobby actually owns business enterprises in china and specific proof that the chinese government requires them to provide the forms of birth control that hobby lobby actually sued the us government over.

If you can't, i'll just assume that you're making stuff up.
dezaad said:
c'mon. If they really believed that god does not want them to pay for contraception and abortion, they simply wouldn't own a business in china, period. Is it suddenly not sin for them to pay for abortion and contraception because they want to own a business in china and the law there requires businesses to pay for it? You really think that their theology would be consistent and permit this?
canadajohn said:
i didn't realize hobby lobby had us constitutional rights that extended to china. Do you also believe that all other american companies who do business in china, the middle east, africa, etc. Should cease because the cultures and politics in those lands are contrary to the judeo-christian values that america was founded on?

rcart76 said:
in my opinion they just don't want to accrue cost.

This is a portion of a statement that hobby lobby said:



Don't get me wrong. I applaud this courageous statement for christianity.....if the company was actually living by it.

Here is another part of their statement:



Hmm. This is interesting considering that they import billions of dollars of products from china. I will take it a step further by adding that they own a company (hong kong connections, ltd.) in china. Since hobby lobby owns a business in china, that means they pay taxes to the chinese government. In fact, they pay the income tax for each employee by withholding the required percentage from the employee's gross pay. More importantly however, in this context, hobby lobby is also required by chinese law to contribute to each employee's state-mandated health insurance plan, in this case the urban employee basic medical insurance, to the tune of about 6% of the employee's pay.

That insurance not only likely covers abortion , it also covers contraception, including the four types of contraception hobby lobby objects to in their lawsuit against the hhs. Iuds are the most popular form of birth control among married women in china. Among single women ages 20-29, the age group that accounts for the majority of abortions in china, the use of emergency contraception like plan b has increased steadily over the last decade.

What all of this means is that hobby lobby does in china exactly what it refuses to do in the us, namely pay into a state-mandated health insurance plan that covers types of contraceptive methods to which they object on moral grounds.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

And, I don't know what the hell you are talking about. My remarks are directed at your argument, in bold. If it isn't true that Hobby Lobby owns a subsidiary in China, then my remarks don't apply to anything (and really neither do yours). I am not asserting that they do. IF they do, THEN to avoid hypocrisy, they shouldn't.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

JasperL said:
It's pretty amazing people don't recognize that poor people might actually have a hard time affording effective contraception, and that might be why poor women are more likely to have unintended pregnancies and have abortions than women in the middle class and above.
Click to expand...

If one is to credit your comments as true, then the solution is for the federal government to fund a program of contraceptive distribution out of tax dollars and not force businesses to do the job for them.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Dezaad said:
Perhaps. For example, do KKK members who own businesses get to ignore non-discrimination laws because their white-supremacist beliefs are (genuinely, I might add) religiously held? It may be. And it may be that this is exactly how it should be. If we want to curb such religious freedom, perhaps we should have to amend The Constitution. We shall see.
Click to expand...

Know a lot of KKK members do yah, now?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

CanadaJohn said:
No hyperbole there. You'd think the Supreme Court just bolted locks on all abortion clinics throughout the US.

The total weakness of your argument is demonstrated by the utter over the top exaggeration of your response.
Click to expand...

What am I exaggerating?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Maenad said:
Know a lot of KKK members do yah, now?
Click to expand...

Why would I need to know KKK members?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

disneydude said:
The ruling is not limited to the 4 drugs that they were opposed to. Have you read the holding?
Click to expand...

The most expensive morning after pill costs around $50, the least around $25. These costs are not prohibitive if the women are actually using regular contraception and only slip up once or twice, or their regular birth control stops working.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

disneydude said:
The ruling is not limited to the 4 drugs that they were opposed to. Have you read the holding?
Click to expand...

The case was all about those 4 drugs. The company offers 16 different contraceptions in their plan and will continue to do so.

Do you think the world has ended because some employees of Hobby Lobby can't use their insurance to buy 4 forms of birth control?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom