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Thread: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I'm not too interested in getting into a big discussion, but I am curious and don't feel up to reading thorugh all the pages here...

    I've read a couple of op-eds from people to the left who claim that this ruiling is taking away rights from women.

    So, then I wonder.. Did women not have rights prior to obamacare? Aftrerall, prior to Obamacare busiensses were not required to purchase BC.

    Then I also wonder.. What right was taken away. Women can still purchase as much BC as they want, they can even see a doctor to get a prescription. The only thing that has changed, as far as I can see, is who will pay for it.

    I really don't want to get too into it, but I am curious about those questions... and the opeds I read didn't seem to get into specifics as to what right they thought was being removed.
    I wouldn't say liberal, I'd say disenfranchised ex-conservative.

    And like any Supreme Court case, the direct effects of the rulings aren't really all that significant. Yes, there will be a few people who are negatively impacted; but the broader picture is what else can be justified with this ruling. And you're left with two scary options. Either women's health care is somehow special in that employers may veto their legal obligations to pay for it, or the door is opened for any deeply held religious belief to override any legal obligation.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Over the following decade brings us to today. I always paid for my own birth control pills when I used them. And I never complained about it.
    The point was if your employer didn't cover contraception, you'd have been in the minority before the ACA was established, because only 10% by 2010 didn't provide coverage.

    And whether you paid or your employer did, and whether or not you complained, really isn't the issue. The fact is about half of all pregnancies are unintended, resulting in millions of abortions and all kinds of social problems. The question that matters is whether an employer mandate to cover contraception, to better allow especially poorer women to have easy, affordable access to the most effective options, serves a compelling or legitimate purpose. The research seems to indicate it does and that society is better off when women can plan pregnancies. And the SC says they agree.

    I guess more than anything I don't get the comments that seem to suggest that this issue isn't important, that providing easy and affordable access to women is really about them being able to have sexy fun time whenever they want instead of trying to do something about the REAL problems of unintended pregnancy in this country.

    If the women get it from HHS, that's good, but if they don't then what comes with that is KNOWING that we'll have many more unintended pregnancies because for some reason women just DO have sex and without contraception DO get pregnant when they don't want to, and that leads to predictable problems like abortion and babies born to mother unprepared to adequately care for their children. We can wish it wasn't so, but that would be just burying our heads to the problem, not facing it.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I'm not too interested in getting into a big discussion, but I am curious and don't feel up to reading thorugh all the pages here...

    I've read a couple of op-eds from people to the left who claim that this ruiling is taking away rights from women.

    So, then I wonder.. Did women not have rights prior to obamacare? Aftrerall, prior to Obamacare busiensses were not required to purchase BC.

    Then I also wonder.. What right was taken away. Women can still purchase as much BC as they want, they can even see a doctor to get a prescription. The only thing that has changed, as far as I can see, is who will pay for it.

    I really don't want to get too into it, but I am curious about those questions... and the opeds I read didn't seem to get into specifics as to what right they thought was being removed.
    They actually were, if they covered prescription meds of any kind.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    The point was if your employer didn't cover contraception, you'd have been in the minority before the ACA was established, because only 10% by 2010 didn't provide coverage.

    And whether you paid or your employer did, and whether or not you complained, really isn't the issue. The fact is about half of all pregnancies are unintended, resulting in millions of abortions and all kinds of social problems. The question that matters is whether an employer mandate to cover contraception, to better allow especially poorer women to have easy, affordable access to the most effective options, serves a compelling or legitimate purpose. The research seems to indicate it does and that society is better off when women can plan pregnancies. And the SC says they agree.

    I guess more than anything I don't get the comments that seem to suggest that this issue isn't important, that providing easy and affordable access to women is really about them being able to have sexy fun time whenever they want instead of trying to do something about the REAL problems of unintended pregnancy in this country.

    If the women get it from HHS, that's good, but if they don't then what comes with that is KNOWING that we'll have many more unintended pregnancies because for some reason women just DO have sex and without contraception DO get pregnant when they don't want to, and that leads to predictable problems like abortion and babies born to mother unprepared to adequately care for their children. We can wish it wasn't so, but that would be just burying our heads to the problem, not facing it.
    I didn't realize that an employer had some sort of obligation to keep the unwanted pregnancy rate down. I was raised to believe that it was my responsibility to not get pregnant. I never heard that it was my employer's.

    Is this a new way of thinking?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Who made a decision for me? I missed that.
    Before today, no one. But moving forward it's entirely possible. Supreme Court decisions aren't done in a vacuum. They are the guidance lower courts use to make rulings.

    This ruling says that the owner of a for profit corporation is allowed to object to and avoid paying for something they deem morally objectionable. The SCOTUS said that this was limited to Women's reproductive health care, but unless there's something different about women's health care then this case can be used to object to anything. That's the real problem, the decision is breathtakingly broad. Why would this deeply held religious belief trump this particular law, but other deeply held beliefs not trump other laws?

    I think there is too much emphasis made on the argument of should employees be required to provide birth control as part of the ACA. That is a policy issue. The question at hand is can the government enforce a law, not is that law good policy.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I suspect if Hobby Lobby hadn't narrowed their scope, they probably wouldn't have won the case... One thing I'm significantly more confident of, is if HHS had just dropped those 4 contraceptives in the first place, nobody could have won a case to be exempt on religious grounds.
    But businesses DID win, and they won even when they objected to ALL contraceptive options. Read the cases in the link. Catholic business owners, objected (naturally) to all forms of BC, sued to provide NONE, and they won, and the SC denied cert with left the lower court rulings intact.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Before today, no one. But moving forward it's entirely possible. Supreme Court decisions aren't done in a vacuum. They are the guidance lower courts use to make rulings.

    This ruling says that the owner of a for profit corporation is allowed to object to and avoid paying for something they deem morally objectionable. The SCOTUS said that this was limited to Women's reproductive health care, but unless there's something different about women's health care then this case can be used to object to anything. That's the real problem, the decision is breathtakingly broad. Why would this deeply held religious belief trump this particular law, but other deeply held beliefs not trump other laws?

    I think there is too much emphasis made on the argument of should employees be required to provide birth control as part of the ACA. That is a policy issue. The question at hand is can the government enforce a law, not is that law good policy.
    The only thing that was decided globally that I'm aware of was HHS deciding that all Americans have to purchase a third party service or pay a tax. Not something I ever saw in my lifetime. I have insurance because I want it, not because the government ordered me to get it, but that isn't the case with people who chose not to buy insurance.

    The government overstepped its bounds. That is a bigger issue than religious rights being upheld (Constitutionally and legall protected rights, I might add).

    I gather you were equally offended when Obama & HHS removed your right to buy what you want, and not what they ordered you to buy?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I suspect if Hobby Lobby hadn't narrowed their scope, they probably wouldn't have won the case... One thing I'm significantly more confident of, is if HHS had just dropped those 4 contraceptives in the first place, nobody could have won a case to be exempt on religious grounds.
    Some of you people on the right are getting it wrong, the decision involved all 20 methods.

    Justices act in other health law mandate cases


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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I didn't realize that an employer had some sort of obligation to keep the unwanted pregnancy rate down. I was raised to believe that it was my responsibility to not get pregnant. I never heard that it was my employer's.

    Is this a new way of thinking?
    Well, first of all, it's the government's job to set policy in a way to achieve broad goals agreed to by the public who elected them. If you don't think the employer mandate to provide contraception, and hopefully reduce unwanted pregnancies, is a wise decision, that we should accept millions of abortions and all the problems that come about because of unwanted pregnancies, that's fine, state that. I guess then in the face of the problem of unwanted pregnancies, we should do nothing? Just pay for the fallout?

    I guess we could scold young women and tell them to not have sexy play time because it's sinful and bad. It will fail, but we might feel better doing it.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Well, first of all, it's the government's job to set policy in a way to achieve broad goals agreed to by the public who elected them. If you don't think the employer mandate to provide contraception, and hopefully reduce unwanted pregnancies, is a wise decision, that we should accept millions of abortions and all the problems that come about because of unwanted pregnancies, that's fine, state that. I guess then in the face of the problem of unwanted pregnancies, we should do nothing? Just pay for the fallout?

    I guess we could scold young women and tell them to not have sexy play time because it's sinful and bad. It will fail, but we might feel better doing it.
    The goverment's job is to control the population? When did they get that responsibility?

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