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Thread: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    no one is asking hobby lobby to use contraceptives, nor is it hobby lobbies moral imperative to make sure others don't.
    Hobby Lobby never told anyone not to use contraceptives.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    BTW, part of this is definitely optics and politics, but the right wing has done itself no favors so far. The all male hearing on the mandate for contraception for women was a telling example, and five old male Catholics issuing an extremely narrow ruling, against 3 women and a Jew on the other side, doesn't help the optics either, and comments like many in this thread that treat preventing pregnancy as somehow not a legitimate medical need for women is just piling on.
    Spoken like a member of the party of the Klu Klux Klan.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    No, you're just forcing them to pay for abortions. HL has no interesting keeping others from having abortions as a business practice. If they did then they'd threaten to fire their employees or something for having them. HL just doesn't want to contribute to the act on their own part.
    preventing a fertilized egg from implanting itself in the uterine wall is very very different than abortion. Somewhere between 25-50% of fertilized eggs don't make it under optimal circumstances.
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    You sound like you're a lot of fun to be around.
    I am, I'm poking fun at what looked to me like a laughably arrogant statement. Do you believe very few employees earn their pay?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    I have not paid much attention to this topic, but decided to read up on it a bit.
    So Hobby Lobby offers regular birth control to it's employees,
    But feels the morning after pill and IUE's, are forms of abortion which it opposes.
    Hobby Lobby case: What birth control is affected?
    The Supreme Court agrees to a very limited extent.
    Are they making too much of this issue?
    Who are the "they" you refer to?

    You summed up the situation nicely.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    Sure.
    The SC decision was based on the Freedom Of Religion Act so their ferocious response to the ruling shows the Democrat Party faithful are waging a War On Religion.
    Actually, since the issue is based on HL's objection to contraceptives, the Democrats seem to be focusing more on the GOPs War on Women. I've heard they're already fund raising off of it. lol

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    Commandment 11? "thou shalt not enable the sinning of heathens". You have to convert them first, then you're free to push the moral end of things. You can't just push the morals on the unconverted masses.

    The religious beliefs in question concern the use of contraceptives by those whole follow said beliefs. Heathens/pagans/non believers do not factor in anywhere. Just because you've been legally mandated to provide health care does not mean you have a say in heath care standards, regardless of your beliefs.
    Let's say you're an atheist who owns a business and employees a few thousand people. You don't limit your employees beliefs in any way and even provide a small room where employees can exercise their religious beliefs in a reasonable manner during regular, paid breaks. You think you're being plenty fair and amenable to your employees and your employees aren't complaining at all.

    Then, one day, a court case comes down that says you have to provide religious symbols and amenities for your employees. Now, you aren't opposed to employees bringing their own religious artifacts to use at work as long as they keep it private and limit their use to the designated break time but you're kind of bent out of shape by having to provide crucifixes, prayer mats, statuary, etc. The cost isn't really the issue but you're starting to feel like this might be an imposition on your religious freedom so you decide to sue the government.

    Finally, after spending a ****load of money and suffering much unwanted publicity you win your case. That day, however, someone comes in and says the decision is screwed and you're getting over on people...forcing your beliefs on them....because you refuse to provide them with the articles of their faith.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This is a key difference in how the two sides view it. HL's owners aren't being asked to do anything against their beliefs.
    Wrong. They would be forced to pay for abortifactants.

    The argument is they're 'paying' for that IUD. Well, they're paying wages, and employees can use those wages to get IUDs or even abortions. The difference between the act of paying for an IUD through a standard insurance product mandated by law, versus paying for an IUD through wages is VERY small.
    They don't see it that way.

    The Court said it isn't their job to determine whether that difference is substantial, only take the word of the litigants that it is to THEM. I suppose that's OK, and proper, but for purposes of this debate we can challenge that assumption in my view, because whether that difference is 'substantial' was in fact a key part of the ruling and where the two sides frequently diverge.
    No, the issue of whether religious objections should result in a waver hinge on whether the government has a compelling interest in implementing the law and whether they are using the least restrictive means reasonably possible. It's clear that the Court's problem with how HHS did things was that they had a less restrictive alternative available and didn't offer it to HL.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Spoken like a member of the party of the Klu Klux Klan.
    No it's not at all. Catholics have a very restrictive, well known, well publicized view of contraception and sex. It's for procreation, period. And five MEN, with those personal religious views, decided to allow employers to restrict access to the contraception their religion tells them is sinful.

    I'm just stating the optics, particularly of FIVE MEN holding a decidedly minority view on contraception, deciding the healthcare needs of women, and on top of the GOP holding an all MALE panel on the contraceptive needs of WOMEN. If you can't see the optics look bad to women, then you're not paying attention. I can just tell you because I've read it 1,000 times that many women would just rather ignorant old men who have no clue about the healthcare needs of women keep their old man noses out of their lady parts business. Those old men don't have to live with the consequences. Disagree if you want, but that feeling is out there.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    What's wrong with you?
    You better read your own link.
    It says what I said.
    HL's objection was specifically to abortifacients on religious grounds.
    Those other cases were also based on religious reasons and the SC sent them back for review given their ruling.
    If those companies can't make their case given the SC ruling they will fail ... if they can they will succeed ... that's as it should be, right?
    Hobby Lobby might have objected to only 4 types, but they explicitly argued the case on the basis of a religious objection being able to trump all forms of birth control.

    Frankly, this is easily the worst Supreme Court decision in at least my lifetime. How can you segregate women’s reproductive healthcare from everything else? What about Scientologists? Can they do away with their prescription drug plan? What about pacifists, should they be refunded the portion of taxes spent on military? What is the fundamental difference between paying into a fund that pays into a fund that pays into something you don't like and paying taxes which goes toward appropriations which goes to something you don't like? Why is a religious objection to womens health care different from a religious objection to drone attacks?

    Also, remember this is a for profit corporation that no longer has to pay for something required by every other employer. They gain a competitive advantage because of their religious beliefs. As many as 90% of all US Businesses fall into the "closely held" category as defined by the SCOTUS. So we should expect them to start all "joining" the religion which opts them out of anything to give them a competitive advantage.

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