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Thread: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    I suppose its a matter of perspective I guess. To some of us, this is just an opportunity for employers to push their religion on their non religious employees. Essentially, god says you shouldn't be doing this anyway, so we're not paying for it. What the employee believes doesn't matter. That's whats wrong with the whole thing. Its up to the individual to follow the teachings of whatever religion they choose to follow, not attempt to force others to do so, through financial pressure, slut shaming, or whatever other means. One is supposed to voluntarily subjects ones self to the rules/morals/teachings/etc of a given religion. They shouldn't be financially pressured into it any more than they should be physically pressured into it. The fact that vasectomies are still covered puts the lie to this pile of hypocrisy.
    All of that is predicated by the idea that an employer is mandated to provide something other than a wage to the employee.

    If we simply allowed the employee to purchase their own insurance then they would be free to obtain whatever level of coverage they wanted and could afford. There would be no need to infringe on anyone's religious beliefs.

    One of the biggest problems with "one size fits all" solutions is that not everyone is the same size and, inevitably, some will have much more than they need while other won't have enough. It's an inherently flawed way of utilizing resources and, as such, ends up being ridiculously burdensome when mandated.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If the insurance is earned and/or paid for by the employee then it's not free.
    The odds are that the healthcare package in question is worth well more than your objective value to the company already, which is why there is no reason to go jacking up the prices paid by employers on unnecessary luxuries.

    Christ, what's next? Employer mandated plastic surgery?

    If the desire is to have a better life or even to have a life...then yes, pregnancy often does require preventing. But family planning isn't your problem....but the sexual habits of others apparently is.

    I didn't realize that "participating in the economy and social life of the Nation" aka known as working and having a job was considered "sexual liberation" but I can see how some men might see it that way.
    Do whatever you want. Just don't expect anyone else to foot the bill.

    I fail to see how this is hard concept.

    The simple fact of the matter is that there are means of avoiding pregnancy out there which do not cost a dime. You simply desire the luxury of not having to make use of them.

    Furthermore, yes, what you're advocating here does ultimately come down to "sexual liberation." You are basically saying that it is your employer's responsibility to ensure that you are able to have sex without risking pregnancy.

    Since when?

    Not entitled to what? Not entitled to earn a living or not entitled to plan a family? Women are entitled to that and if you can't handle it then that is your problem. <shrug>
    They are "entitled" to do so only on their own dime.

    You do not have the right to demand that anyone else pay for it.

    Health insurance is part of the employers payment package. We earn it.
    It is mandated by law.

    Realistically speaking, very few employees actually put in the productivity necessary to legitimately "earn" it.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-01-14 at 03:09 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    The belief must be sincere and I think the sincerity of specious claims can be effectively challenged, but we'd have to wait until someone tried to run with such a specious argument in court and I don't think that's going to happen. I doubt you do, either.
    Are you questioning whether Christian Science members sincerely believe their interpretation of scripture?

    In YOUR opinion, it is a specious argument. You dodged the question. You are likely to continue to dodge it, being dishonest with yourself, by trying to claim something you know can't be demonstrated one way or the other at this time: That they aren't sincere. What exactly do you think they actually believe, if not what they say they believe?

    Do you think that the SCOTUS should be in the business of determining what beliefs are scriptural?

    And yes, I do think there will be cases that arise, actually. And if the SCOTUS tries to say in any way shape or form "That is not a scriptural belief", I will be very surprised. If they try to say, "That is not a widely held belief", I will be very surprised. It might be that a belief isn't sincerely held, but I doubt it will get to the SCOTUS at all if it can be demonstrated that it is not sincerely held.

    We just need to accept that religious freedom is likely to have a wide ranging impact on employment laws regarding private companies. I am ok with that, but you are in denial it will even happen.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    90% of the companies in the US are "closely held". This ruling opened up a can of worms.
    That's not enough just to be closely held, as you already know. The ruling was specific and narrow. What percentage of that 90% are religious. What % of that % has a problem with certain types of contraception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Will the government be able to regulate for profit businesses who claim religious exemption or will that be considered "unconstitutional" as per the first amendment?
    I'm sure the government, if they see a benefit to government in doing so, will try. However, that is not germane to this topic.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by shagg View Post
    I suppose its a matter of perspective I guess. To some of us, this is just an opportunity for employers to push their religion on their non religious employees. Essentially, god says you shouldn't be doing this anyway, so we're not paying for it. What the employee believes doesn't matter. That's whats wrong with the whole thing. Its up to the individual to follow the teachings of whatever religion they choose to follow, not attempt to force others to do so, through financial pressure, slut shaming, or whatever other means. One is supposed to voluntarily subjects ones self to the rules/morals/teachings/etc of a given religion. They shouldn't be financially pressured into it any more than they should be physically pressured into it. The fact that vasectomies are still covered puts the lie to this pile of hypocrisy.
    Hobby Lobby owners should be forced to do things that are against their religious beliefs, but people should not be forced to do things against their religious beliefs. Got it.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    If all the Founding Fathers suddenly rose from the dead and read this thread, what percentage would immediately put a gun to their heads?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    All of that is predicated by the idea that an employer is mandated to provide something other than a wage to the employee.

    If we simply allowed the employee to purchase their own insurance then they would be free to obtain whatever level of coverage they wanted and could afford. There would be no need to infringe on anyone's religious beliefs.

    One of the biggest problems with "one size fits all" solutions is that not everyone is the same size and, inevitably, some will have much more than they need while other won't have enough. It's an inherently flawed way of utilizing resources and, as such, ends up being ridiculously burdensome when mandated.
    The ACA is a poor excuse for wanting to push the religious beliefs and morals of the employer onto the employee. I could just as easily say this is employers, bitter over being legally required to assist in their employees healthcare, shamelessly using their beliefs to fight a battle they've lost countless times. And because freedom of religion is one the founding principles of this country, SCOTUS doesn't want to just say "too bad" and steamroll them.

    Why are vasectomies covered? they provide nothing but the risk associated with any procedure and the ability to have sex without risk of conception(or incredibly low risk, like most birth control methods). Sex is supposed to be strictly for reproduction right? Why no moral obligation to make it more difficult for non believers to have risk free sinful intercourse?
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Hobby Lobby owners should be forced to do things that are against their religious beliefs, but people should not be forced to do things against their religious beliefs. Got it.
    no one is asking hobby lobby to use contraceptives, nor is it hobby lobbies moral imperative to make sure others don't.
    Could It Be Semantics Generating This Mess We're In?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Since you brought it up, please explain what you mean, bubba?
    Sure.
    The SC decision was based on the Freedom Of Religion Act so their ferocious response to the ruling shows the Democrat Party faithful are waging a War On Religion.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Are you questioning whether Christian Science members sincerely believe their interpretation of scripture?

    In YOUR opinion, it is a specious argument. You dodged the question. You are likely to continue to dodge it, being dishonest with yourself, by trying to claim something you know can't be demonstrated one way or the other at this time: That they aren't sincere. What exactly do you think they actually believe, if not what they say they believe?

    Do you think that the SCOTUS should be in the business of determining what beliefs are scriptural?

    And yes, I do think there will be cases that arise, actually. And if the SCOTUS tries to say in any way shape or form "That is not a scriptural belief", I will be very surprised. If they try to say, "That is not a widely held belief", I will be very surprised. It might be that a belief isn't sincerely held, but I doubt it will get to the SCOTUS at all if it can be demonstrated that it is not sincerely held.

    We just need to accept that religious freedom is likely to have a wide ranging impact on employment laws regarding private companies. I am ok with that, but you are in denial it will even happen.
    Narrow ruling and liberal theatrics. That sums up this issue.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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