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Thread: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You don't have evidence on your side in that argument. How many ARE coming here? In 2008, McKenzie estimated 80,000 per year (pop Europe, about 800 million. Pop Canada, about 35 million, etc.). At least 10 times more Americans travel abroad for care. Somewhat less than 0.5% of Canadians get care in the U.S., and many of those who do were here and received medical care for illnesses that had nothing to do with medical tourism. They got care where they got sick or injured.

    Etc.
    Hmmm, 80,000? And you have problem going 1/2 hour to get birth control pills? Don't see Europeans getting to this country and our doctors in 1/2 hour but yet they still come here. You actually believe Americans travel abroad for care? Prove it?

    I suggest you read the entire article on Medical Tourism. It is easy for you to pick and choose what you want to believe without getting the details. What a great country we live in so you can come and go as you please. I have traveled extensively with my job and found the wait times outrageous for care in other countries and the care a lot less than what I get here. Further it does seem that promoting foreign healthcare programs fails to take into account that foreign countries are under no obligation to report information the same as required here therefore you are comparing apples to oranges.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I have, in three countries (Germany, Aruba, Hong Kong), and it was quite good in all three cases. The GP actually came to my hotel room in HK, which was nice. That 20 minute visit plus drugs was $70.

    But anecdotes =/= evidence, good or bad. Same reason that SOME leaders of SOME countries have traveled here for SOME medical procedures isn't actually much of an argument for any particular arrangement of a healthcare system that serves 350 million individuals. Do SOME leaders of SOME countries travel to countries other than the U.S.? How many compared to those who travel to the U.S.? Etc.
    Most quality hotels have doctors on staff or on call for their customers, so what you received isn't abnormal. I don't see people in this country going to Europe for heart surgery or any other major medical procedures but I do see people coming here for those procedures. I am still trying to understand why you believe a one size fits all program will work in a country of over 312 million Americans, 50 sovereign states with 50 different costs of living? You put a lot of faith in a Federal Govt. that has created a 17.5 trillion debt and now has over 100 million people dependent on it for some kind of welfare programs excluding Medicare and SS which are self funded.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yes, and not everyone that gets help from that 3.8 trillion dollar federal govt. actually needs that help as there is significant waste, fraud, and abuse. Until that is solved why would you support sending more money to the Federal Govt?
    "Until 'that is solved'...... " One reason I really do wish we had a less than batcrap crazy right wing in this country is to actually solve problems like that. I think the problem is the right wing, with few exceptions, has no interest in governing, and so don't care to actually work to solve anything. Their idea of solving a problem is to take a meat axe to the safety nets and hand out more tax cuts.

    And 'waste, fraud and abuse.' I'm not sure there's a more overused and totally meaningless phrase in all of politics than that.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    "Until 'that is solved'...... " One reason I really do wish we had a less than batcrap crazy right wing in this country is to actually solve problems like that. I think the problem is the right wing, with few exceptions, has no interest in governing, and so don't care to actually work to solve anything. Their idea of solving a problem is to take a meat axe to the safety nets and hand out more tax cuts.

    And 'waste, fraud and abuse.' I'm not sure there's a more overused and totally meaningless phrase in all of politics than that.

    Really? Your opinion noted. Please explain to me what the Democrat Controlled Congress from January 2007-January 2011 actually did that made things better for you? I am a very proud "right winger" as I believe in the Constitution which established a small limited central govt. because I know that I am closer to my state and local govt. than a bureaucrat in D.C. thus don't put much faith in that bureaucracy that created the 17.5 trillion dollar debt we have today and has yet to solve a social problem.

    Do you always think only with your heart? I wonder what it is about liberalism that creates the kind of loyalty that you have for a failed ideology? All someone has to say is we are spending in the name of compassion and you melt. Where are those compassionate results generated by the Federal Govt?

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So, we have to find countries with at least our population and then limit our analysis to only those few countries? That's really mindbogglingly irrational.
    Who's "we"? And yes - it's a reasonable request given the scope and breadth of healthcare you claim are the "best ones". So which country has that then... I'll continue to wait.......
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Who's "we"? And yes - it's a reasonable request given the scope and breadth of healthcare you claim are the "best ones". So which country has that then... I'll continue to wait.......
    Good question for someone who claims it is a hardship to drive an hour or so to get contraception free at a planned parenthood facility. Wonder when she was in Aruba if she found any evidence showing where Natalee Holloway is? I realize that it is a huge island bigger than the United States but with their excellent healthcare system I am sure that their police and investigative services certainly match that healthcare quality and they have some current information on her.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Most quality hotels have doctors on staff or on call for their customers, so what you received isn't abnormal. I don't see people in this country going to Europe for heart surgery or any other major medical procedures but I do see people coming here for those procedures. I am still trying to understand why you believe a one size fits all program will work in a country of over 312 million Americans, 50 sovereign states with 50 different costs of living? You put a lot of faith in a Federal Govt. that has created a 17.5 trillion debt and now has over 100 million people dependent on it for some kind of welfare programs excluding Medicare and SS which are self funded.
    You asked, I answered, but like I said, anecdotes =/= evidence.

    And you really should read up on medical tourism. The numbers flow the opposite way you're depicting them, with at least 10 times more Americans traveling abroad than come here, including for some very major surgeries (including heart procedures, transplants, etc.) than the reverse. The CDC estimates about 1 million travel FROM the U.S. for care overseas.

    And the reason is simple - there are extremely skilled physicians everywhere, and the cost overseas is a fraction of here. We might have more of the the top 1/10,000 of specialists (the elite of the elite), but in the big picture that's likely more a function of size than of some inherent advantage to our system, although the fact that specialists are paid multiples of the pay rec'd elsewhere plays a role. Fine. Can we afford to pay 5 times Europe for a heart surgeon to keep or attract a handful that serve a couple hundred patients a year, including heads of state?

    Finally, I'm not in favor of a 'one size fits all' system. The ACA isn't a 'one size fits all' system - each state has its own marketplace, with multiple insurers on the marketplace, many more insurers off it, and thousands or 10s of thousands of private providers, all competing for patients and healthcare dollars. Any state can, right now, get off it's lazy dang rear end and design an alternative to the ACA. In Vermont they're working on single payer. If Texas wants a 'free market' model, write them and tell them to get to work. They need to so something as Texas is #1 in the uninsured rate! 25%! Helluva job Texas.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Who's "we"? And yes - it's a reasonable request given the scope and breadth of healthcare you claim are the "best ones". So which country has that then... I'll continue to wait.......
    Very reasonable. So we can look at healthcare in China OR India. That's the entire list. Which one should we start with?

    All you're recommending is those studying healthcare in this country disregard and remain intentionally ignorant of dozens of real world experiments in providing healthcare across the globe.

    Like I said, mindbogglingly irrational.
    Last edited by JasperL; 07-03-14 at 01:30 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You asked, I answered, but like I said, anecdotes =/= evidence.

    And you really should read up on medical tourism. The numbers flow the opposite way you're depicting them, with at least 10 times more Americans traveling abroad than come here, including for some very major surgeries (including heart procedures, transplants, etc.) than the reverse. The CDC estimates about 1 million travel FROM the U.S. for care overseas.

    And the reason is simple - there are extremely skilled physicians everywhere, and the cost overseas is a fraction of here. We might have more of the the top 1/10,000 of specialists (the elite of the elite), but in the big picture that's likely more a function of size than of some inherent advantage to our system, although the fact that specialists are paid multiples of the pay rec'd elsewhere plays a role. Fine. Can we afford to pay 5 times Europe for a heart surgeon to keep or attract a handful that serve a couple hundred patients a year, including heads of state?

    Finally, I'm not in favor of a 'one size fits all' system. The ACA isn't a 'one size fits all' system - each state has its own marketplace, with multiple insurers on the marketplace, many more insurers off it, and thousands or 10s of thousands of private providers, all competing for patients and healthcare dollars. Any state can, right now, get off it's lazy dang rear end and design an alternative to the ACA. In Vermont they're working on single payer. If Texas wants a 'free market' model, write them and tell them to get to work. They need to so something as Texas is #1 in the uninsured rate! 25%! Helluva job Texas.
    I guess choice is only an issue with people like you when it comes to birth control and abortion. Love how you think having 25% uninsured in TX is an indictment but of course you choose not to recognize how many of those people are uninsured because of CHOICE. You see TX has many options available for low income people most of whom simply refuse to sign up for Medicaid or the various TX programs available to them. Now of course if personnel from those programs would only make house calls, would only guide the hands of individuals to sign up, and then follow up over and over again to make sure they understand the program, they could get those numbers down significantly. You see, TX understands personal responsibility and if people choose not to become insured TX will allow it. TX does not micromanage individual lives like apparently you want and need.

    Single payer system is Utopia. Look how well it is working at the VA and of course that great FDR program Medicare. Wow, incredible results from both that must make liberals very happy since liberals apparently have such low expectations.

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    Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Very reasonable. So we can look at healthcare in China OR India. That's the entire list. Which one should we start with?

    All you're recommending is those studying healthcare in this country disregard and remain intentionally ignorant of dozens of real world experiments in providing healthcare across the globe.

    Like I said, mindbogglingly irrational.
    Tell me how wonderful China and India's healthcare system is and how it should be adopted in the US. Please... I'm all tingling with anticipation.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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