Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

roguenuke · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
You're reducing the whole of the human experience to sex. There is so much more to life.

1) Sodomy contradicts the purpose of human sexuality. Space travel does not so contradict human nature. And I was referring to this thread.
2) What haven't I defined?

First of all, no, he's not. But you have done that a number of times with procreation, reducing the whole of human experience and human nature to procreation. Like you said, "there is so much more to life".

Second, sodomy does not in any way contradict the purpose of human sexuality, because there is no sole purpose of human sexuality, not that you can prove. There are many purposes.

You have yet to show that any claims you have made about the purpose of sex, the immorality of sodomy, or that sodomy contradicts the purpose of sex is anything more than subjective and therefore your personal opinion.

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

blarg said:
you have a reason that's not faith based

I have provided such a reason.

blarg · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
I have provided such a reason.

the kids?

gay people still have them

im hetero sexual I don't have any

you have a problem with sex between people who are fertile and those who are not

or peel who don't have kids

or oral sex or masturbation

or with not having kids

my hand wasn't built to type on a a key bored is that immoral to?

roguenuke · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
I have provided such a reason.

A reason that is based on your faith in what human nature is. That is still a subjective reason, an opinion. Your failure to view your personal beliefs as what they are is the main issue you seem to be having here. Just because you do not preface something with "in my opinion" or "in my belief" does not mean that it isn't just your opinion or your belief.

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

blarg said:
the kids?

gay people still have them

im hetero sexual I don't have any

you have a problem with sex between people who are fertile and those who are not

or peel who don't have kids

or oral sex or masturbation

or with not having kids

my hand wasn't built to type on a a key bored is that immoral to?

Sexual acts which are incapable by virtue if the nature of the act (not a condition of the persons) of resulting in procreation, or in which procreation is deliberately impeded, are immoral.

There's no inherent difference between typing and other uses of the hand.

blarg · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Sexual acts which are incapable by virtue if the nature of the act (not a condition of the persons) of resulting in procreation, or in which procreation is deliberately impeded, are immoral.

There's no inherent difference between typing and other uses of the hand.

that would count with infertile people

so why is it wrong to have sex without being able to have kids from it

where's the problem

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

blarg said:
that would count with infertile people

so why is it wrong to have sex without being able to have kids from it

where's the problem

Infertility is a condition of the person not part of the nature of the act.

Ceist · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Encouraging people in grave immorality is harmful to them, as such impedes their fulfillment of their telos.

So you are against religious indoctrination because it encourages people in grave immorality that is harmful to them, and as such impedes their fulfillment of their telos?

blarg · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Infertility is a condition of the person not part of the nature of the act.

having sex with some one who is infertile alters the nature of the act it can't result in kids

your double standard betrays you

roguenuke · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Infertility is a condition of the person not part of the nature of the act.

But if the condition is known then having sex still would contradict the nature (or at least your purported nature) of the act.

JasperL · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
You're reducing the whole of the human experience to sex. There is so much more to life.

No I'm actually not. Loving and being loved is about much more than sex. Intimacy isn't hot sex. It's you who is reducing a loving relationship to the straight OR gay sex involved, blessing one, and saying relationships that involve gay sex are somehow illegitimate.

blarg · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Sexual acts which are incapable by virtue if the nature of the act (not a condition of the persons) of resulting in procreation, or in which procreation is deliberately impeded, are immoral.

There's no inherent difference between typing and other uses of the hand.

you seem to be operating under the assumption that some one came up with sex for a reason that it did not just develop on it own

Ceist · Jul 4, 2014

johndylan1 said:
Why not? Why is it wrong to recognize the traditional role that the church plays in marriage? The vast majority of Americans believe marriage to be a church / God ordained activity.

And is anyone trying to stop the "vast majority of Americans who believe marriage to be a church / God ordained activity" from having a church wedding themselves? No.

Is anyone trying to stop them from obtaining a secular marriage license? No.

JasperL · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
Sexual acts which are incapable by virtue if the nature of the act (not a condition of the persons) of resulting in procreation, or in which procreation is deliberately impeded, are immoral.

In other words, you believe straight sex can be moral, but gay sex cannot. We all get that, no need to dress it up, and that's fine. But that's just your belief, as deeply held as it might be. Strict Catholics don't believe in contraception, so do they get to impose their beliefs on you and outlaw it for the 90% or so of the population that don't believe as they do? Why not? Because it will inconvenience you? Many more religions do not believe sex outside of marriage is moral. That's also fine, but should our laws reflect that belief? Why not?

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

Ceist said:
So you are against religious indoctrination because it encourages people in grave immorality that is harmful to them, and as such impedes their fulfillment of their telos?

How does it do that.

blarg said:
having sex with some one who is infertile alters the nature of the act it can't result in kids

your double standard betrays you

The act is still the same act.

JasperL said:
No I'm actually not. Loving and being loved is about much more than sex. Intimacy isn't hot sex. It's you who is reducing a loving relationship to the straight OR gay sex involved, blessing one, and saying relationships that involve gay sex are somehow illegitimate.

I'm not against loving human relationships. I'm against unnatural sexual relationships.

Lursa · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
a) Already explained.

b) Yes, truth is truth and law is law.

c) Sodomy is immoral, as already explained.

.

a) no, you have demonstrated no harm to society, you have only given an opinion that it is. Saying it is 'immoral' is completely subjective and no actual harm can be demonstrated...unless you can give some examples?

b) so then abortion is just fine then?

c) how is sodomy immoral? Who or what does it harm? Please prove that this is more than your opinion.

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

JasperL said:
In other words, you believe straight sex can be moral, but gay sex cannot. We all get that, no need to dress it up, and that's fine. But that's just your belief, as deeply held as it might be. Strict Catholics don't believe in contraception, so do they get to impose their beliefs on you and outlaw it for the 90% or so of the population that don't believe as they do? Why not? Because it will inconvenience you? Many more religions do not believe sex outside of marriage is moral. That's also fine, but should our laws reflect that belief? Why not?

As you just quoted me saying, contraception is immoral and should be outlawed.

Fornication is also wrong, although I'm not sure it would be best to outlaw it. Although unmarried open cohabitation should probably be outlawed.

Lakryte · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
How does it do that.

The act is still the same act.

I'm not against loving human relationships. I'm against unnatural sexual relationships.

Then cut the BS about the purpose of sex is to have kids, therefore gay sex is immoral. The purpose of infertile sex cannot possibly be to have children, so if you are consistent with your argument you would have to call infertile sex immoral. Refusing to do so is hypocrisy.

roguenuke · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
How does it do that.

The act is still the same act.

I'm not against loving human relationships. I'm against unnatural sexual relationships.

And that is your right to be "against" those relationships. What is not your right is to prevent others legally from being in those relationships or from having those relationships recognized by the government just because you believe they are "unnatural", wrong, immoral, whatever. You must show how these relationships in themselves cause problems within our society that are measurable and not due to something else, and that the problem is significant enough to warrant a law against such relationships.

Deuce · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
1) Sodomy contradicts the purpose of human sexuality. Space travel does not so contradict human nature. And I was referring to this thread.
2) What haven't I defined?

1) No, it doesn't. It doesn't result in procreation, but it doesn't prevent procreation either. And you're jumping from "unnatural" to "human nature." The two terms are not synonymous. Your original complaint was that it's "unnatural," but you've retreated from that to an even more vague term. Is murder within human nature? We kill all the time. Homosexual behavior exists in nature. Animals do it. Are they unnatural? Space travel isn't natural, no species does it naturally.
2) You can't define the purpose of humanity.

JasperL · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
As you just quoted me saying, contraception is immoral and should be outlawed.

Fornication is also wrong, although I'm not sure it would be best to outlaw it. Although unmarried open cohabitation should probably be outlawed.

Oh wow. No point debating you, seriously. You're in favor of theocracy. Can't debate with that!

Deuce · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
As you just quoted me saying, contraception is immoral and should be outlawed.

Fornication is also wrong, although I'm not sure it would be best to outlaw it. Although unmarried open cohabitation should probably be outlawed.

Now you're picking and choosing which things you morally approve should be illegal and which ones should be legal. :lamo

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

Lursa said:
a) no, you have demonstrated no harm to society, you have only given an opinion that it is. Saying it is 'immoral' is completely subjective and no actual harm can be demonstrated...unless you can give some examples?

b) so then abortion is just fine then?

c) how is sodomy immoral? Who or what does it harm? Please prove that this is more than your opinion.

a and c) I already gave the proof. If you wish, refute it.

b) The natural law prohibits abortion.

JasperL said:
Oh wow. No point debating you, seriously. You're in favor of theocracy. Can't debate with that!

I have never advocated a theocracy.

Lursa · Jul 4, 2014

Paleocon said:
a and c) I already gave the proof. If you wish, refute it.

b) The natural law prohibits abortion.

.

We already discussed this. There is no such thing as natural law, it is just an obvious workaround for the religious to make an argument that 'nature' is guided by a higher being or force.

It's not so your entire argument is null and void.

Paleocon · Jul 4, 2014

Deuce said:
Now you're picking and choosing which things you morally approve should be illegal and which ones should be legal. :lamo

Which of these things should be banned is a prudential matter beyond the scope of this discussion. None of them should receive government support.

Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

roguenuke

Paleocon

blarg

roguenuke

Paleocon

blarg

Paleocon

Ceist

blarg

roguenuke

JasperL

blarg

Ceist

JasperL

Paleocon

Lursa

Tenacious

Paleocon

Lakryte

roguenuke

Deuce

Outer space potato man

JasperL

Deuce

Outer space potato man

Paleocon

Lursa

Tenacious

Paleocon