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Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

Equality but only for certain groups is not equality. Coin the phrase "some people are more equal than others". SSM is not about equal rights, it's about gays having rights, and the right in question is the the right to let the State infringe on their privacy, which isn't much of a legitimate 'right' at all anyway. If SSM were about equal rights then we would be talking about all harmless unions, such a polygamy.

I trust you're intelligent enough to not buy into the 'equality' meme.

It is equality for same sex couples in the same way that opposite sex couples are currently allowed to marry. That is the comparison. It is not just about gays because every single person gets a new right recognized for them by the government, the right to marry a person of the same sex, as they currently can the opposite sex, not just gays.
 
If it were about equality under the law then we would be talking about all groups, not just those which distract the public from obama selling terrorists modern arms.

That isn't how equality under the law works. If it were, then same sex couples would have been allowed to legally marry with the Loving decision.
 
OR it could be that YOU don't understand how our courts function as opposed to how they are supposed to function. SCOTUS abandons their oath, makes a decision that is basically rewriting the Constitution. That decision becomes precedent from which a number of lower court decisions derive. Some of them even interpreting in their own rewrites thusly.

That's the problem when you allow the courts to do what the people should be doing.

And yet not only do we, the people, allow them to make these decisions, most of us agree that in making such decisions that they generally tend to protect our rights more than they take them away. Very few people actually believe that the states should have unlimited right to decide who should be allowed to marry.
 
No, that's not why the 14th applies.

The 14th applies because classifications of gender require intermediate scrutiny under the 14th amendment, the test being that the measure is "substantially related to an important state interest."

Name the interest.
All while ignoring other protected classes whoes relationships are not otherwise harmful, like marital status. If the 14th applies to one, it applies to all, and since the marriage reform movement isn't addressing them all, the 14th applies to non.
 
Given your answers I might guess that you are in favor of polygamy, yes?
I'm not passionate enough to say I'm in favor. I would say I'm indifferent, but in all fairness if someone said they were indifferent to abortion we would call them pro-choice, so if you want to call me pro-polygamy then go right ahead.

Further it is discriminatory to pass laws against it, yes?
Marital status is a protected class, and what's more is polygamy is bonefied religious practice in many places, thus I would say a ban of polygamy is twice as discriminatory as a ban on SSM. That the 'equality' meme doesn't address such relationships demonstrates that SSM is not about equality at all. This is just a wedge issue.
 
That isn't how equality under the law works. If it were, then same sex couples would have been allowed to legally marry with the Loving decision.
I think you mean that's not how SCOTUS works. I think the average American would be a mixture of impressed and horrified to learn how SCOTUS works. Did you know they figured out a way to extend their authority onto other countries? It's a nice trick, truly.

Policy needs to come from the legislature and the legislature only. We need a marriage amendment defining what marriage is, why the state should be involved at all, and protect fair and equal access to all relationships which are not otherwise harmful. We need the same for abortion. Short of that, a person is abusing the system to feed a wedge issue.

That your cause is just doesn't mean it is not judicial activism.
 
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All while ignoring other protected classes whoes relationships are not otherwise harmful, like marital status. If the 14th applies to one, it applies to all, and since the marriage reform movement isn't addressing them all, the 14th applies to non.

You still don't get it. The 14th amendment applies to all laws, it's just that it doesn't overturn all laws. Polygamy would not be subject to heightened scrutiny, so the rational basis review would apply. The state must only show a rational basis for the classification. Do they have one? Good question. It's not a terribly high bar to pass. I suspect polygamy bans would not hold up under the 14th amendment if challenged. Why haven't you challenged them?

As for all the other bull**** the evangelicals bring up like pedophiles, bestiality, marrying furniture, etc, the state can easily justify banning those.
 
You still don't get it. The 14th amendment applies to all laws, it's just that it doesn't overturn all laws. Polygamy would not be subject to heightened scrutiny, so the rational basis review would apply.
An Amendment to the Constitution on marriage would bump that up to Strict Scrutiny, but alas marriage is not a constitutional right like it should be, and it seems the 'equality' movement has no interest in Due Process. I hope SCOTUS rules against SSM like they ruled against women's right to vote so that we can do what we should have don at the very beginning: make an Amendment regarding marriage.

The state must only show a rational basis for the classification. Do they have one? Good question. It's not a terribly high bar to pass. I suspect polygamy bans would not hold up under the 14th amendment if challenged. Why haven't you challenged them?
We tried and failed. Native Americans need to clean up the rez before their polygamy case will be hard by the state. Until then, there are to many targets of opportunity in the real-life examples of polygamy on the rez to make it a viable movement.

As for all the other bull**** the evangelicals bring up like pedophiles, bestiality, marrying furniture, etc, the state can easily justify banning those.
You won't hear me bringing up any of that nonsense.
 
OR it could be that YOU don't understand how our courts function as opposed to how they are supposed to function. SCOTUS abandons their oath, makes a decision that is basically rewriting the Constitution. That decision becomes precedent from which a number of lower court decisions derive. Some of them even interpreting in their own rewrites thusly.

That's the problem when you allow the courts to do what the people should be doing.

So every single court that has ruled on same sex marriage doesn't understand how the courts are supposed to function. And that sounds reasonable to you?

Right-oh.
 
On what basis should a government sanction a marriage? On what basis should a marriage not be sanctioned?

since "sanction" is very vague and subjective youll have to be more specific?

all legal contracts are sanctioned by the government :shrug:
 
I'm not passionate enough to say I'm in favor. I would say I'm indifferent, but in all fairness if someone said they were indifferent to abortion we would call them pro-choice, so if you want to call me pro-polygamy then go right ahead.


Marital status is a protected class, and what's more is polygamy is bonefied religious practice in many places, thus I would say a ban of polygamy is twice as discriminatory as a ban on SSM. That the 'equality' meme doesn't address such relationships demonstrates that SSM is not about equality at all. This is just a wedge issue.

Thanks for your honest answers. I think you are willing to be consistent. I do believe that by accepting alternative definitions of marriage it degrades the concept to an socially unacceptable level, whether that be ssm for some or polygamy for others. Any thing other than one man and one woman marriage opens up an anything goes mentality, otherwise any limits will be arbitrary. Given the push for a change in the social norms regarding marriage I would be for removing the sanction all together. Let partnership agreements be the rule for government and marriage reserved to the church.
 
Thanks for your honest answers. I think you are willing to be consistent. I do believe that by accepting alternative definitions of marriage it degrades the concept to an socially unacceptable level, whether that be ssm for some or polygamy for others. Any thing other than one man and one woman marriage opens up an anything goes mentality, otherwise any limits will be arbitrary. Given the push for a change in the social norms regarding marriage I would be for removing the sanction all together. Let partnership agreements be the rule for government and marriage reserved to the church.
See, being 'equal' isn't easy. So no marriage for atheists? Are you saying atheists can't have the same level of reverence and respect for the union as 'believers' might? :mrgreen: And what if you're Muslim? Muslims don't attend 'church', and neither do Buddhists. They attend 'temple'. But what about Wiccans? They don't attend any specific building at all; more often than not it's any coven member's living room or a bonfire out in the middle of nowhere.

Do yourself a favor and just leave the word 'marriage' alone. It's not worth the headache.
 
Erosion of the 10th Amendment. If the Fed wants to weigh in on marriage, hey that's great, and the only proper way is to make a Federal amendment so that marriage comes under Federal governance and is no longer left to the States.

What happened in Loving and is happening with SSM is the Fed is ruling and a right which it has no authority to rule on.

Gay marriage isn't about gays or marriage, its about attacking the Constitution.

So, what we need is a federal marriage amendment defigning what marriage is and protecting fair and equal access to it.

Was interracial marriage also about attacking the Constitution?

We dont need an amendment, we need the states to not allow gender discrimination in (marriage) contracts.
 
I think you mean that's not how SCOTUS works. I think the average American would be a mixture of impressed and horrified to learn how SCOTUS works. Did you know they figured out a way to extend their authority onto other countries? It's a nice trick, truly.

Policy needs to come from the legislature and the legislature only. We need a marriage amendment defining what marriage is, why the state should be involved at all, and protect fair and equal access to all relationships which are not otherwise harmful. We need the same for abortion. Short of that, a person is abusing the system to feed a wedge issue.

That your cause is just doesn't mean it is not judicial activism.

Without the ability to strike down unconstitutional laws, the SCOTUS would be pretty pointless. And allowing the legislature to have complete control over what is constitutional gives a lot of power to the legislature. I find it laughable how much some people, mainly those who are adamant pro-states' rights over individual rights, want to give so much power to the legislature, any legislature.
 
Thanks for your honest answers. I think you are willing to be consistent. I do believe that by accepting alternative definitions of marriage it degrades the concept to an socially unacceptable level, whether that be ssm for some or polygamy for others. Any thing other than one man and one woman marriage opens up an anything goes mentality, otherwise any limits will be arbitrary. Given the push for a change in the social norms regarding marriage I would be for removing the sanction all together. Let partnership agreements be the rule for government and marriage reserved to the church.

The church does not own marriage. They didn't invent it, despite some beliefs, nor do they hold any kind of copyright on it. It belongs to all of us, not just those who are religious. Marriage is what we call all unions of this certain type, not just those that are religious in nature. Heck, they started out as a private, social arrangement, no religious involvement at all. Even the Christian church didn't involve themselves in marriage in a mandatory manner until around the 10th Century, and then it was only to mandate that people needed to post announcements for their marriages in a town announcement, so that there was some sort of record of the marriage.
 
Thanks for your honest answers. I think you are willing to be consistent. I do believe that by accepting alternative definitions of marriage it degrades the concept to an socially unacceptable level, whether that be ssm for some or polygamy for others. Any thing other than one man and one woman marriage opens up an anything goes mentality, otherwise any limits will be arbitrary. Given the push for a change in the social norms regarding marriage I would be for removing the sanction all together. Let partnership agreements be the rule for government and marriage reserved to the church.

"Degrades the concept." "Attacks the institution." "Undermines moral fabric." Over and over we hear statements like this, but they're always vague. Never anything specific, anything concrete. Never a single, tangible manner in which two men marrying has any impact on your life.

You don't own the word. Atheists get married. Adulterers get married. Buddhists get married. Divorcees get remarried.

Church wants to use a different word? Fine. They can pick a new one. The rest of society has no reason to change.
 
Was interracial marriage also about attacking the Constitution?
Yes. The people who banned it, and the people who took it to court instead of just removing the banners from office and replacing them with legislators who would do their job correctly.

We dont need an amendment, we need the states to not allow gender discrimination in (marriage) contracts.
And amendment would acomplish that properly.
 
Without the ability to strike down unconstitutional laws, the SCOTUS would be pretty pointless. And allowing the legislature to have complete control over what is constitutional gives a lot of power to the legislature. I find it laughable how much some people, mainly those who are adamant pro-states' rights over individual rights, want to give so much power to the legislature, any legislature.

A SSM ban is not unconstitutional because marriage is not a Constitutional right. It is left to the states to regulate.

The only way for SCOTUS to have proper authority to rule on SSM is to make a marriage amendment.
 
A SSM ban is not unconstitutional because marriage is not a Constitutional right. It is left to the states to regulate.

The only way for SCOTUS to have proper authority to rule on SSM is to make a marriage amendment.

Gender discrimination is unConstitutional, so that's why it's unConstitutional. It restricts entering into (marriage) contracts based on gender.
 
Thanks for your honest answers. I think you are willing to be consistent. I do believe that by accepting alternative definitions of marriage it degrades the concept to an socially unacceptable level, whether that be ssm for some or polygamy for others. Any thing other than one man and one woman marriage opens up an anything goes mentality, otherwise any limits will be arbitrary. Given the push for a change in the social norms regarding marriage I would be for removing the sanction all together. Let partnership agreements be the rule for government and marriage reserved to the church.

Socially acceptable for whom? Many in our society support it and the trend is more and more all the time. There is no evidence that SSM is performed any differently nor has any additional negative (or positive) consequences than traditional marriage.

While I'd prefer that the govt was not involved in marriage at all, it is and as such, IMO and legally, it should do so without discrimination. I dont think there's any indication that the govt plans to 'get out of' marriage so I dont see it as a fight worth investing in.
 
Yes. The people who banned it, and the people who took it to court instead of just removing the banners from office and replacing them with legislators who would do their job correctly.


And amendment would acomplish that properly.


Since I dont believe the govt should be involved in marriage at all, I dont really support an amendment. And really see no purpose in it.
 
Gender discrimination is unConstitutional, so that's why it's unConstitutional. It restricts entering into (marriage) contracts based on gender.
A SSM ban is not gender/sex discrimination because each sex can do what the other can do. Neither sex has any special privilege the other sex lacks. The right is to marry someone of the opposit sex. It was never a right of a man to marry a woman with the right of a woman to marry a man. Its a right of everyone to marry someone of the opposit sex, of the age of magirity, who is of sound mind. Neither sex ever had any right to marry the same sex primeraly because homosexuality itself is a birth defect to begin with.

If a SSM ban is discrimination then it's discrimination against an uncontrollable medical condition, and Public Accomidation should step in and let gays 'marry' just like a post-op transexual woman is now a 'man'. I'm a very big supporter of Pubic Accomidation and support gays marrying because it helps them cope with their condition and become more functional and productive members of society. God knows many gay couples can do better than I did at marriage.
 
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A SSM ban is not gender/sex discrimination because each sex can do what the other can do. Neither sex has any special privilege the other sex lacks. The right is to marry someone of the opposit sex. It was never a right of a man to marry a woman with the right of a woman to marry a man. Its a right of everyone to marry someone of the opposit sex, of the age of magirity, who is of sound mind. Neither sex ever had any right to marry the same sex primeraly because homosexuality itself is a birth defect to begin with.

If a SSM ban is discrimination then it's discrimination against an uncontrollable medical condition, and Public Accomidation should step in and let gays 'marry' just like a post-op transexual woman is now a 'man'. I'm a very big supporter of Pubic Accomidation and support gays marrying because it helps them cope with their condition and become more functional and productive members of society. God knows many gay couples can do better than I did at marriage.


yes it is because the contract does not allow 2 people of the same gender to enter into the marriage contract. It is gender discrimination.

I'll ignore the total ignorance part, since I'd love to see any way or *justification* for straight people to 'control their medical condition' of being attracted to the opposite gender, lol.
 
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