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Thread: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

  1. #381
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Advocates of traditional marriage use all sorts of awful words to describe homosexuals and those who support them. My concern is not for namecalling or who is bothered by it.

    The courts are working to uphold the constitution.
    Where in the constitution does it address marriage?
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  2. #382
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I am unable to come up with an answer meeting your criteria (which does not mean that one doesn't exist, it may or may not). Although I challenge the need for those criteria, thus my question.
    The reason for the criteria is that human judges cannot use the supernatural to decide the law. That which humans cannot observe, the law cannot dictate. And America is built upon a foundation of individual liberty. My personal, moral disapproval of someone else's actions is not enough reason to restrict their freedom to that action. Our government is hamstrung by the constitution. It is not allowed to restrict our freedom without sufficient justification. It is not allowed to classify its citizens differently without sufficient justification. Such justifications have to come from something identifiable. To restrict someone's freedom, you need to demonstrate why. I don't approve of Scientologists. Their beliefs are reprehensible. In my opinion, it's a cult that tricks people to get their money. But my disapproval is not enough to prevent Bob from joining them, or believing what they believe.

    I want tighter gun control. But the government can't do that without a good enough reason. And because gun ownership is a right stipulated in the constitution, the bar for this is quite high. The need must be great, and the measure must be the least restrictive measure possible. Well, marriage is also a fundamental right. Marriage is a basic component of the family unit, which is the building block of a society. The right is so fundamental that we cannot even deny it to a criminal. Someone currently in jail still must be allowed to get married, and those are people who have undergone due process, those are people who have had the most basic rights imaginable stripped from them. Any restriction on who can marry who has to be met with a powerful justification.

    While you might personally believe that this family unit must be based on a man and a woman, the government doesn't have the luxury of leaning on belief alone. If the legal contract exists, any private citizen must be allowed to enter into it barring a sufficient state interest in preventing it. Because the government is hamstrung by our constitution, and we made it that way to preserve individual freedom. Under the 14th amendment, a distinction of gender must be justified by an "important state interest" that the measure is "substantially related" to furthering. That's it. That's the test. Marriage contract, business contract, speed limits, doesn't matter. That's the test you need to pass for the state to sanction a distinction of gender.



    As for your question, I believe that if it's not measurable, or empirical, "truth" will always be subjective to some degree. Your belief in God's will may be absolute, and that a particular reading of his word is absolute. Thing is, there's another guy who has a different reading of the same words, and he believes that to be absolute. A while back, people said similar things about Zeus. A mortal court system can't judge these things. Robbery causes specific, measurable harm to the victim. A wiccan casting a blood curse upon you does not. So the wiccan gets to chant their words over a bowl of newts, or whatever it is they do.
    Last edited by Deuce; 07-04-14 at 12:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #383
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Where in the constitution does it address marriage?
    The constitution addresses equal protection under the law, and due process of law. I've already mentioned the mechanics of this several times.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  4. #384
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Well for one, pushing for marriage. That is part of the agenda that contributes to the "lifestyle". I didn't know I had to explain that. It seems pretty self explanatory.
    It's not self-explanatory or I wouldnt be asking. Straight couples desire marriage so that is a SIMILARITY in 'lifestyle,' not a difference.

    Yes, please do tell us how the 'gay lifestyle' is different from the 'straight lifestyle,' aside from being the same gender.

    Straight people buy houses, cars, go on vacation, raise families, go to PTA, take their kids to soccer and dance class, mow their lawns, take out the garbage, go to church, do community service, etc etc etc.

    Can you please tell me how the 'gay lifestyle' differs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Wanting a right and having a right are two different things. No "right to marry" ever was to include men marrying men. Or women marrying women.
    Women werent 'meant' to have the vote either. Or black people.

    Funny how society's forward strides and fairness and equality finally surface when enough people stand up and demand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #386
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Google is your friend.

    It makes their being unfulfilled.
    I'm curious about this. My brother is gay, and so far as I can see he has three options.

    1) Live a life alone
    2) Pretend to be straight and live a lie
    3) Be gay, hopefully spend his life with someone he loves.

    Now you're saying the third option is the one that would result in his life being 'unfulfilled?' I don't understand how you'd believe that. Maybe you think there is a fourth option, become straight? It's the only thing that might sense in this context, but of course it's not an actual option.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    My "socially unacceptable" comment was not directed at ssm only. I think you missed the point of my post. The point is that there are arbitrary limits to what is acceptable as marriage. It is no more discriminatory to exclude gay marriage than it is to exclude polygamy, or any other arrangement that people could consent to. Therefore allowing SSM does NOTHING to remedy discrimination, it only moves the line between acceptable and unacceptable.
    Not allowing SSM is gender discrimination. Some states also recognize sexual orientation as a protected class, so then they would be discriminated against as well.

    If other consenting adults (the only ones who can enter into contract in this country) want the right to marry, then they need to make their case Constitutionally.

    For the record, I am not against polygamy (altho I think it's a dumb move for women) or incestuous marriage (because I dont believe many people would petition for this NOR that it would stop the actual results which are the reason it is illegal).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #388
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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I'm not morbidly self-centered. As such I don't restrict my concern to matters which directly affect me.
    Who or what does SSM negatively affect?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Encouraging people in grave immorality is harmful to them, as such impedes their fulfillment of their telos.
    No it doesnt. Prove it.

    LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Gay marriage wins in Indiana and Utah

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Straight people buy houses, cars, go on vacation, raise families, go to PTA, take their kids to soccer and dance class, mow their lawns, take out the garbage, go to church, do community service, etc etc etc.

    Can you please tell me how the 'gay lifestyle' differs?
    Sounds about right from the gay lifestyle I've seen in action! But to be fair, they are a pretty fit bunch, at least my brother's friends.

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